Warriors Legacy?

[My Dinner With Andre 5,687]

14 minutes ago, Gohawks said:

You can be mad at Durant but how the hell can you be mad at the Warriors?

 

They did things about as right as you can. Built incredibly through the draft like no other. Then they went after KD because they built through the draft like no other. How can you fault them for that? You expect them to be like; "We are already so good might as well try and make it fair for everyone else!" They sold KD on their system and it worked. I don't like KD either and hate what he did but I appreciate the Warriors.

 

I'm not mad at anyone.

 

I just think the sequence of events is damning: 73-9, best record in NBA history; choke in the finals, squandering a 3-1 series lead; go out and add Kevin Durant.

 

They've been on cruise control ever since.

 

And their record-season records have actually worse in the two years since even though the roster is exponentially better!

[Gohawks 9,950]

43 minutes ago, My Dinner With Andre said:

 

I'm not mad at anyone.

 

I just think the sequence of events is damning: 73-9, best record in NBA history; choke in the finals, squandering a 3-1 series lead; go out and add Kevin Durant.

 

They've been on cruise control ever since.

 

And their record-season records have actually worse in the two years since even though the roster is exponentially better!

I think they have been worse because they learned their lesson about going 100% in the regular season.

 

Just can’t blame the team for adding KD. Hell, it would make sense to go after Lebron. You just try and get better. If the rest can’t keep up it’s on them.

[jstep13 2,433]

6 hours ago, Preparing the Kool-Aid said:

 

I wasn't quoting Krause

 

 

 

 

On the eve of the 1998 season, he dropped his most famous, and most misquoted, statement: “Organizations win championships.” “What I said was, correctly, ‘Players and coaches alone don’t win championships. Organizations do.’ That’s true,” Krause said last month in an interview with Adrian Wojnarowski of Yahoo! Sports.

 

“You’ve never really backed away from that,” Wojnarowski responded. “You still believe it.”

Edited May 29, 2018 by jstep13

[jstep13 2,433]

6 hours ago, Preparing the Kool-Aid said:

 

I wasn't quoting Krause, but a sports historian who wrote a book about Bulls. Haven't read it myself, so can't say about the source(s) regarding that perspective, but I'd imagine it wasn't simply Krause laying it out. The author had this to say about the book (and Bulls):

 

 

 

I understand what you're saying but I was just commenting on the Krause comment. That dude was something else...

[Pyschout 186]

Did I just read an argument where someone cited Jordan playing well as an argument against him?

 

I have no love for the Warriors, but sometimes it's better to be lucky than it is to be good.  If you would've told me the Rockets would have the worst three point slump in the history of the playoffs, I would've laughed and said I could see them losing, but not like that.  But that's exactly what happened.

[Auction>Snake 408]

19 hours ago, Pyschout said:

Did I just read an argument where someone cited Jordan playing well as an argument against him?

 

I have no love for the Warriors, but sometimes it's better to be lucky than it is to be good.  If you would've told me the Rockets would have the worst three point slump in the history of the playoffs, I would've laughed and said I could see them losing, but not like that.  But that's exactly what happened.

Yeah Jordan played well in the leading into the 1995 nba eastern conference finals and throughout the 6 game series he wasn't "rusty" at all but was still beaten by Shaq & Penny, in-fact he played better than he did in 1996, 1997 & 1998. He lost and never made the 1995 NBA Finals. MJ desperately needed Rodman's help.

[Pyschout 186]

On 5/30/2018 at 5:00 AM, Auction>Snake said:

Yeah Jordan played well in the leading into the 1995 nba eastern conference finals and throughout the 6 game series he wasn't "rusty" at all but was still beaten by Shaq & Penny, in-fact he played better than he did in 1996, 1997 & 1998. He lost and never made the 1995 NBA Finals. MJ desperately needed Rodman's help.

So your point is Jordan needed another good player?  I really don't get what you're trying to say.  He played well and you're trying to use that as an argument against him and it just doesn't make any sense.

[Gohawks 9,950]

1 hour ago, Pyschout said:

So your point is Jordan needed another good player?  I really don't get what you're trying to say.  He played well and you're trying to use that as an argument against him and it just doesn't make any sense.

He’s just trying to discredit Jordan to prop up Lebron. Lebron fans may be worse than Jordan fans. I don’t know if it’s worse to think a player is without flaws or that it’s never a players fault no matter what happens. 

[Saucy 198]

I don't know if they are the best DYNASTY ever, because that requires success over an extended period of time (which they have, but not at the level of the Lakers, Celtics, or Bulls), but in terms of legacy I think they have to go down as the best team ever. No team has ever had this kind of talent. You can make a very legitimate case they have the three best shooters to ever play.

[jstep13 2,433]

23 minutes ago, Saucy said:

I don't know if they are the best DYNASTY ever, because that requires success over an extended period of time (which they have, but not at the level of the Lakers, Celtics, or Bulls), but in terms of legacy I think they have to go down as the best team ever. No team has ever had this kind of talent. You can make a very legitimate case they have the three best shooters to ever play.

 

Maybe. You could argue Durant-Westbrook-harden-ibaka in terms of pure talent. Extra credit to that team for being created naturally versus an artificial collection of talent via FA...

[Auction>Snake 408]

10 hours ago, Pyschout said:

So your point is Jordan needed another good player?  I really don't get what you're trying to say.  He played well and you're trying to use that as an argument against him and it just doesn't make any sense.

No, although he played well overall Jordan choked twice and cost them the series in 1995.

 

Rodman's offensive rebounding won the following 1996 series. 

 

Jordan not only shot terribly from the field, he was absolute garbage in the fourth quarters too (shot 33.3% in them, and only 15.4% in the fourth quarters of the three close games). In the two close wins of the series, Rodman averaged 11 offensive rebounds/game. He was setting records, and when MJ was shooting the team out of the game with bricks (rest of the team struggled shooting wise too), it was Rodman getting all those rebounds to give Bulls the extra possessions. Bulls as a team shot much lower than Sonics in that series...why do you think they still won? They got 34 more possessions from offensive rebounds (Rodman alone had 41!) MJ's scoring could have been replaced in that series, but Rodman's historic offensive rebounding? Not so much.

 

Rodman should have been the MVP of that Finals. The Bulls shot much worse from the field than the Sonics in the Finals but still won. How did that happen? Simple. The Bulls got more shot opportunities from offensive rebounds basically negating many of their misses. Rodman, by himself, secured and additional 41 possessions for the Bulls with his offensive rebounding including 2 games where he tied an NBA Finals record. That's like playing H-O-R-S-E and someone giving you multiple "do overs" after you've missed.

[RedDogNamedClippers 2,187]

What is this Jordan’s Legacy?

[jnormy 421]

On May 30, 2018 at 5:00 AM, Auction>Snake said:

Yeah Jordan played well in the leading into the 1995 nba eastern conference finals and throughout the 6 game series he wasn't "rusty" at all but was still beaten by Shaq & Penny, in-fact he played better than he did in 1996, 1997 & 1998. He lost and never made the 1995 NBA Finals. MJ desperately needed Rodman's help.

 

And yet somehow he managed to win three straight titles before Rodman ever got there.

 

Credit to Jordan's greatness that there's so much being made here about this one series loss, sandwiched around two three-peats. What's next, a detailed analysis of his two years with the Wizards?

[Cdub2k 1,242]

5 hours ago, RedDogNamedClippers said:

What is this Jordan’s Legacy?

Early in his career he was a super scorer on a team that went no where. 

When they added good players around him they went further in the playoffs and MJ became more than just a Slam Dunk and Scoring Title side show. He became defensive player of the year in 1988. He constantly improved his game and when he reached his physical maturity he dominated the entire 1990's. 

The thing that gets overlooked during that 96, 97 and 98 3 peat run was that MJ was All Defensive 1st team in 96, 97 and 98. He wasn't just a scorer he locked down his man night in and night out

 

[Auction>Snake 408]

5 hours ago, jnormy said:

 

And yet somehow he managed to win three straight titles before Rodman ever got there.

 

Credit to Jordan's greatness that there's so much being made here about this one series loss, sandwiched around two three-peats. What's next, a detailed analysis of his two years with the Wizards?

And who'd he beat in the first 3-peat... Lakers with no Kareem, Worthy was done & Magic had aids. Portland had Drexler. Suns had Barkley. When did he ever face 3 or 4 Hall of Famers on one team? 

[jnormy 421]

1 hour ago, Auction>Snake said:

And who'd he beat in the first 3-peat... Lakers with no Kareem, Worthy was done & Magic had aids. Portland had Drexler. Suns had Barkley. When did he ever face 3 or 4 Hall of Famers on one team? 

The league as a whole was tougher and more balanced then.  Not like the cakewalk disguised as the Eastern Conference today.

[RedDogNamedClippers 2,187]

So three championships in 4 years, and 2 championships for Durant. Can we start the narrative that Durant is the GOAT and will have more championships than Lebron James. Since according to somebody, Durant will be 2 of 3 in the Finals which is 66% win percentage and he didn’t recruit players to join with him to win a championship. /s

[Patrick Bateman 7,224]

On 5/30/2018 at 4:00 AM, Auction>Snake said:

Yeah Jordan played well in the leading into the 1995 nba eastern conference finals and throughout the 6 game series he wasn't "rusty" at all but was still beaten by Shaq & Penny, in-fact he played better than he did in 1996, 1997 & 1998. He lost and never made the 1995 NBA Finals. MJ desperately needed Rodman's help.

 

You sure about that?

 

95' Playoffs stats:

 

WS/48:  .150 -- lowest of his career.

PER:  24.8 -- lowest of any championship run & second lowest of his career (first playoffs lowest)

TOV% -- Highest of his career.

VORP -- 0.9 -- Lower than any championship run and lowest since he was 23.

FTA -- 2nd lowest of his career (ability to get to the line)

 

Now, the West teams he played in the Finals were much more stout defensively (as was the Indy/NYK teams he played in getting there) vs the Magic, who played a much more fun and open court game, but not sure I would agree with your analysis that he was better in 95' than the next 3 years.  

 

Now, Jordan did recognize the Bulls needed to get more stout upfront and encouraged Krause and company to improve there.  They made some changes including getting Rodman and moving Kukoc from stretch 4 to 6th man.  Great move although maybe not needed as Horace Grant got hurt in the 96' series.

[ber 138]

18 hours ago, RedDogNamedClippers said:

So three championships in 4 years, and 2 championships for Durant. Can we start the narrative that Durant is the GOAT and will have more championships than Lebron James. Since according to somebody, Durant will be 2 of 3 in the Finals which is 66% win percentage and he didn’t recruit players to join with him to win a championship. /s

 

SURE if we use lebron's standard for GOAT and KD completes a 3peat next season and go back to OKC and win a chip there.

Edited June 8, 2018 by ber

[My Dinner With Andre 5,687]

Thinking about how the Warriors legacy -- and NBA history altogether, for that matter -- changed dramatically on a single day.

 

http://www.espn.com/nba/recap?gameId=400876755

Edited June 8, 2018 by My Dinner With Andre

[Pyschout 186]

On 6/6/2018 at 9:44 PM, Auction>Snake said:

No, although he played well overall Jordan choked twice and cost them the series in 1995.

 

Rodman's offensive rebounding won the following 1996 series. 

 

Jordan not only shot terribly from the field, he was absolute garbage in the fourth quarters too (shot 33.3% in them, and only 15.4% in the fourth quarters of the three close games). In the two close wins of the series, Rodman averaged 11 offensive rebounds/game. He was setting records, and when MJ was shooting the team out of the game with bricks (rest of the team struggled shooting wise too), it was Rodman getting all those rebounds to give Bulls the extra possessions. Bulls as a team shot much lower than Sonics in that series...why do you think they still won? They got 34 more possessions from offensive rebounds (Rodman alone had 41!) MJ's scoring could have been replaced in that series, but Rodman's historic offensive rebounding? Not so much.

 

Rodman should have been the MVP of that Finals. The Bulls shot much worse from the field than the Sonics in the Finals but still won. How did that happen? Simple. The Bulls got more shot opportunities from offensive rebounds basically negating many of their misses. Rodman, by himself, secured and additional 41 possessions for the Bulls with his offensive rebounding including 2 games where he tied an NBA Finals record. That's like playing H-O-R-S-E and someone giving you multiple "do overs" after you've missed.

 

Except Rodman wasn't a great defender that series and didn't have any offensive game at all.  Suffice to say, people both at the time and looking back at history don't agree with you.  Is this just about LeBron to you?  

[maxim730 597]

The Warriors made basketball FUN (3 points, passing, defense, rotations and 3 points). Fun team to watch. 76ers are a fun team to watch too (not the typical NBA - everyone stand around and 1 guy goes ISO).

 

Oh, and the Owner/GM of the Warriors built the team the right way - draft, low cap (Curry was still on his rookie contract) and was able to sign KD. 

 

If the Warriors get Ariza next year.. ooff

Edited June 9, 2018 by maxim730

[RedDogNamedClippers 2,187]

One thing is, as much as people

praise the Warriors offense of 3 pointers, and team sharing and all that Jazz. There is always going to be those old heads that worship the “hero” ball mentality of Jordan & Kobe. 

 

Where you just say “eff it” and just make your own plays and score. That’s where the debate comes in. As much as people

praise the Warriors and the Spurs for their team ball, they’ll kill Lebron for passing the ball up or not having that “Mamba” mentality.

[miasma16 3,344]

19 minutes ago, maxim730 said:

The Spurs made basketball FUN (3 points, passing, defense, rotations and 3 points).

fyp

 

And I'm not sure how one of the best teams in NBA History adding the most recent MVP that wasn't already on their team and destroying the league's parity made basketball fun. That's Durant's fault, not Golden State's, but either way your assertion makes no sense.

Edited June 9, 2018 by miasma16

[jstep13 2,433]

25 minutes ago, RedDogNamedClippers said:

One thing is, as much as people

praise the Warriors offense of 3 pointers, and team sharing and all that Jazz. There is always going to be those old heads that worship the “hero” ball mentality of Jordan & Kobe. 

 

Where you just say “eff it” and just make your own plays and score. That’s where the debate comes in. As much as people

praise the Warriors and the Spurs for their team ball, they’ll kill Lebron for passing the ball up or not having that “Mamba” mentality.

 

 

Hero ball won 11 titles between them. Just sayin' 

Edited June 9, 2018 by jstep13