BigPapi44

Zac Gallen - SP Marlins

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26 minutes ago, ThreadKiller said:

 

You're missing the entire point. Nevermind.

EDIT: You mention the Braves as an example. I live in Atlanta and am very familiar with what they do. Remind me though, what top draft choices did they acquire due to "tanking" that are key contributors now or brought back key contributors in a trade? I'll wait.

 

You don't think there being a salary floor and hard cap along with adjusting how quickly a player can get to FA would help parity across the league (which of course is better for the game) are good ideas?

 

Perhaps I am missing your point.  Please enlighten me.

It sounds as if you're arguing the Marlins are bad for the game by not playing their best players.  I, and others, have pointed out that they're proceeding with the best course for their franchise under the current system.  So if it's bad for their fans, I'd hope their fans understand the system and trust the process.

I don't disagree that the system isn't ideal and shouldn't be changed.  But under the current system, I don't understand how what they're doing is bad for the game, which is what you're arguing.  Which part of the game is it bad for, specifically?  

ETA:

From 2010-2013, the Braves picked no higher than 21st and secured such luminaries as Matt Lipka, Sean Gilmartin, Lucas Sims, and Jason Hursch.  They gave up their 2014 first rounder to sign Ervin Santana, the same year they signed BJ Upton.  They finished 79-83 and started the rebuild after that.


In 2015, the Braves picked 14, 28, and 41 in the 2015 draft - Allard, Soroka, and Riley
In 2016 they picked 3, 40, 44 - adding Ian Anderson, Wentz, and Muller

Their tear down trades included acquisitions of guys like Folty, Newcomb, Swanson, Touissant, etc.  

Their scouting department has been outstanding - without question - and they've done exceedingly well internationally (prior to the Coppy penalties).  But those drafts (and the ones after 2016) rebuilt the farm system, without question, which (along with strong player development) has positioned them where they are now.

 

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35 minutes ago, JFS179 said:

 

Perhaps I am missing your point.  Please enlighten me.

It sounds as if you're arguing the Marlins are bad for the game by not playing their best players.  I, and others, have pointed out that they're proceeding with the best course for their franchise under the current system.  So if it's bad for their fans, I'd hope their fans understand the system and trust the process.

I don't disagree that the system isn't ideal and shouldn't be changed.  But under the current system, I don't understand how what they're doing is bad for the game, which is what you're arguing.  Which part of the game is it bad for, specifically?  

ETA:

From 2010-2013, the Braves picked no higher than 21st and secured such luminaries as Matt Lipka, Sean Gilmartin, Lucas Sims, and Jason Hursch.  They gave up their 2014 first rounder to sign Ervin Santana, the same year they signed BJ Upton.  They finished 79-83 and started the rebuild after that.


In 2015, the Braves picked 14, 28, and 41 in the 2015 draft - Allard, Soroka, and Riley
In 2016 they picked 3, 40, 44 - adding Ian Anderson, Wentz, and Muller

Their tear down trades included acquisitions of guys like Folty, Newcomb, Swanson, Touissant, etc.  

Their scouting department has been outstanding - without question - and they've done exceedingly well internationally (prior to the Coppy penalties).  But those drafts (and the ones after 2016) rebuilt the farm system, without question, which (along with strong player development) has positioned them where they are now.

 

 

Yes you have pointed that out among others (including me lol). I have clearly stated that teams are doing what they can under the current set of rules, but the current set of rules are terrible for the game and the MLB needs to do something about it. I don't know how else to say this in order to make it clear. Spanish?

I know exactly what the Braves have done as I follow them extremely closely. Drafting Allard with their first pick in the draft that MIGHT have been a result of tanking hasn't meant anything to that team (he is a middle level prospect with limited upside). Soroka was picked 28th  (which is NOT a pick they had as a result of their so called "tanking". How is that a result of tanking? I wouldn't qualify selling high on Shelby Miller for Swanson and Touki has tanking either.

Braves didn't tank. They simply went with a youth movement and gave the kids a chance. There is a huge difference. 

The point you're forgetting is that ALL teams participate in the draft, not just tanking teams lol. So drafting anyone in the draft isn't a result of tanking or rebuilding. Only if you are picking in top few picks because you "tanked". Just because you draft Soroka 28th, doesn't mean tanked to have that chance lol. The Astros drafting Correa because they had the first overall pick due to tanking is a better example. Players the Braves could have gotten whether they tanked or not isn't the same (Soroka, Riley, etc). At all. Big difference.

 

The Braves having a strong scouting department and being able to take advantage of the past (2) drafts literally has nothing to do with prior "tanking".

 

The entire Braves lineup isn't a result of them tanking. I would argue that they didn't tank, in fact. They just went with a youth movement. There's a difference. They didn't hold players back for service time the way teams like the Marlins do. Going with a youth movement and intentionally leaving players that are clearly ready in the minors are VERY VERY different.

Edited by ThreadKiller

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Just going right through all of the arguing, there is something simple that can't really be argued.  If Super 2 is passed, which it really should be, there is literally no excuse as to why Gallen isn't up in the majors.  None.

Holding him down now, as far as I know, gives them no advantage unless they plan on holding him down there for the entire season.  Then they are actually hurting themselves because it does no good for Gallen's development if he's stuck down there for a whole season (and then even more next season while they buy yet another year of service time).  If they are serious about trying to rebuild, then you don't leave one of their top prospects down in AAA to literally rot.

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7 hours ago, ThreadKiller said:

 

Yes you have pointed that out among others (including me lol). I have clearly stated that teams are doing what they can under the current set of rules, but the current set of rules are terrible for the game and the MLB needs to do something about it. I don't know how else to say this in order to make it clear. Spanish?

I know exactly what the Braves have done as I follow them extremely closely. Drafting Allard with their first pick in the draft that MIGHT have been a result of tanking hasn't meant anything to that team (he is a middle level prospect with limited upside). Soroka was picked 28th  (which is NOT a pick they had as a result of their so called "tanking". How is that a result of tanking? I wouldn't qualify selling high on Shelby Miller for Swanson and Touki has tanking either.

Braves didn't tank. They simply went with a youth movement and gave the kids a chance. There is a huge difference. 

The point you're forgetting is that ALL teams participate in the draft, not just tanking teams lol. So drafting anyone in the draft isn't a result of tanking or rebuilding. Only if you are picking in top few picks because you "tanked". Just because you draft Soroka 28th, doesn't mean tanked to have that chance lol. The Astros drafting Correa because they had the first overall pick due to tanking is a better example. Players the Braves could have gotten whether they tanked or not isn't the same (Soroka, Riley, etc). At all. Big difference.

 

The Braves having a strong scouting department and being able to take advantage of the past (2) drafts literally has nothing to do with prior "tanking".

 

The entire Braves lineup isn't a result of them tanking. I would argue that they didn't tank, in fact. They just went with a youth movement. There's a difference. They didn't hold players back for service time the way teams like the Marlins do. Going with a youth movement and intentionally leaving players that are clearly ready in the minors are VERY VERY different.

 

We see things differently. Youth movement - fine. Semantics. And they absolutely held Acuña down for service time reasons. Without question. 

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Urena to the 60 Day.  If we don't see Gallen before the end of the month, this is an injustice.

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16 hours ago, JFS179 said:

 

We see things differently. Youth movement - fine. Semantics. And they absolutely held Acuña down for service time reasons. Without question. 

 

No one said they didn't hold Acuna down for 13 games in order to secure an extra year. But then they signed him to long term so it's moot anyway. Point is, the Braves example and what the Marlins and other teams are doing "tanking" are absolutely not the same thing. Night and day.

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40 minutes ago, Dahk said:

Urena to the 60 Day.  If we don't see Gallen before the end of the month, this is an injustice.

 

Sure would be shocking if we have to wait for Jordan Yamamoto to falter, of all the Marlins pitchers thought to stand in Gallen's way, in order to see Zac in a Marlins' uni.

I believe Gallen is scheduled to pitch for the Baby Cakes either today or tomorrow (last pitched Sunday). So, we'll see what happens.

Edited by PhilaFanBoy

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23 hours ago, KilloWertz said:

Just going right through all of the arguing, there is something simple that can't really be argued.  If Super 2 is passed, which it really should be,

Why should it be passed?  Don't teams traditionally usually wait until mid to even late June to be sure?

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52 minutes ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

Why should it be passed?  Don't teams traditionally usually wait until mid to even late June to be sure?

Super Two has likely passed. The last 10 years the cutoff has ranged between 2 years and 122 days of service to 2 years and 146 days. 2018 was 2 years and 134 days. Here are the cutoff points since 2009:

  • 2017: 2.123
  • 2016: 2.131
  • 2015: 2.130
  • 2014: 2.133
  • 2013: 2.122
  • 2012: 2.140
  • 2011: 2.146
  • 2010: 2.122
  • 2009: 2.139

 

Each MLB season counts as 183 days of service, give or take a day or two. Based on the previous years that means a player would have needed at least 41-65 days of service those years to qualify. To avoid Super Two, teams will hold down their prospects until at least 65 days of service. I'm not sure if MLB is using March 20th (when the Japan games started) or March 28th (opening day), but in either case we are now well past the 65 days of service.

I think the Marlins rationale for choosing Hernandez over Gallen when the 1st opening in the rotation appeared was due to the fact that Hernandez has actually pitched really well at AAA and he's already on the 40 man roster. I think their rationale for choosing Yamamoto over Gallen had to due with timing, as others in this thread have mentioned. Marlins needed a starter for Wednesday and Gallen had just pitched over the weekend while Yamamoto was on normal rest (and he has also pitched well in the minors).

I get that people stashing Gallen are restless, but I think there's a decent amount of logic being applied by the Marlins here. I'm stashing him in 4 leagues, but I realize it's not a given that he's up anytime soon. He definitely needs something to happen at the big legue level - like another injury or an implosion from Yamamto or Hernandez - to get the call. 

Edited by meh2
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2 hours ago, PhilaFanBoy said:

 

Sure would be shocking if we have to wait for Jordan Yamamoto to falter, of all the Marlins pitchers thought to stand in Gallen's way, in order to see Zac in a Marlins' uni.

I believe Gallen is scheduled to pitch for the Baby Cakes either today or tomorrow (last pitched Sunday). So, we'll see what happens.

Gallen is their scheduled starter for tonight according to the team's website.  Unless he gets scratched, I doubt he's coming up before mid to late next week (at the earliest so it seems).  If he would somehow get scratched in the next couple of hours, maybe they will shift things around a bit and have him pitch by Monday at the latest, but I wouldn't get my hopes up right now with the way they've handled him so far.

56 minutes ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

Why should it be passed?  Don't teams traditionally usually wait until mid to even late June to be sure?

The Astros called up Yordan Alvarez over the weekend, so I'd have to believe that Super 2 is over with.  While I obviously appreciate him being called up, nothing had really changed with their team in order to rush him up before Super 2 had passed, so I would imagine it did for him and it probably should have for Gallen by now too.

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He made his start tonight. After getting the first two batters out in the first inning he gave up back to back home runs. Hopefully he will settle in after that rough first inning. 

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1 hour ago, Devildog83 said:

He made his start tonight. After getting the first two batters out in the first inning he gave up back to back home runs. Hopefully he will settle in after that rough first inning. 

 

Looks like he has. Line is currently 5 IP, 3 ER, 0 BB, 8 K, 3 homers. Still on the mound.

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Completely possible we don't see him until after the AS Break.  I hope not, but that's in the range of outcomes.

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How is this guy not a top 100 prospect? I'm hoping he is up soon. He looks like he could be a great addition to our teams! 

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22 minutes ago, mrfrood said:

How is this guy not a top 100 prospect? I'm hoping he is up soon. He looks like he could be a great addition to our teams! 

 

The same reason why Paddack was still in the 50-100 range as the season was going on.. prospect lists are slow to update. 

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Not sure how good of a stash Gallen is, with the way Elieser Hernandez and Jordan Yamamoto are pitching, and with Caleb Smith coming back soon. I don't expect Hernandez or Yamamoto to keep this up but I'm sure in the Marlins' eyes, they've earned 2-3 more weeks, which, with the ASB, means Gallen might be more of an August call-up. Hate to say it, as I have him stashed myself.

Jordan Yamamoto's 2nd start: 7 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 2 BB, 7 K....how do you send that down to the minors after a debut of 7 IP, 3 H, 0 R, 2 BB, 5 K on June 12th?

Last night, Hernandez followed up his debut 5.2 IP, 5 H, 3 R, 1 BB, 7 K with 6 IP, 5 H, 1 R, 0 BB, 6 K.

Again, the rotation is Pablo Lopez-Trevor Richards-Sandy Alcantara-Caleb Smith (once he returns)....and then Yamamoto/Hernandez for the fifth spot...with Gallen left in the minors.

I suppose there is the chance the Marlins go with 6 starters.

Edited by PhilaFanBoy

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Even if they go six starters they're probably more likely to just add both Hernandez and Yamamoto to the rotation.

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4 minutes ago, dcye said:

Even if they go six starters they're probably more likely to just add both Hernandez and Yamamoto to the rotation.

Neither are this good, so a blowup is inevitable, but if they are even remotely effective for a while then it's pretty much the end of seeing Gallen anytime soon.  That's the unfortunate thing about both of them going out there and exceeding expectations so far.

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11 hours ago, PhilaFanBoy said:

Not sure how good of a stash Gallen is, with the way Elieser Hernandez and Jordan Yamamoto are pitching, and with Caleb Smith coming back soon. I don't expect Hernandez or Yamamoto to keep this up but I'm sure in the Marlins' eyes, they've earned 2-3 more weeks, which, with the ASB, means Gallen might be more of an August call-up. Hate to say it, as I have him stashed myself.

Jordan Yamamoto's 2nd start: 7 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 2 BB, 7 K....how do you send that down to the minors after a debut of 7 IP, 3 H, 0 R, 2 BB, 5 K on June 12th?

Last night, Hernandez followed up his debut 5.2 IP, 5 H, 3 R, 1 BB, 7 K with 6 IP, 5 H, 1 R, 0 BB, 6 K.

Again, the rotation is Pablo Lopez-Trevor Richards-Sandy Alcantara-Caleb Smith (once he returns)....and then Yamamoto/Hernandez for the fifth spot...with Gallen left in the minors.

I suppose there is the chance the Marlins go with 6 starters.

 

He is a good stash because Yamamoto and Hernandez have combined for like 27 innings pitched in the bigs and could easily blow up in their next start or 2. You are acting as if those guys have been lights out for the Marlins all  year. 

Gallen is a good "stash" because the assumption is that the Marlins rotation will likely have to deal with injuries or regression at some point in the next month or so and Gallen could get the call. It's certainly  not a sure thing because the Marlins could hold him back all year. 

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19 minutes ago, wideopen21 said:

 

He is a good stash because Yamamoto and Hernandez have combined for like 27 innings pitched in the bigs and could easily blow up in their next start or 2. You are acting as if those guys have been lights out for the Marlins all  year. 

Gallen is a good "stash" because the assumption is that the Marlins rotation will likely have to deal with injuries or regression at some point in the next month or so and Gallen could get the call. It's certainly  not a sure thing because the Marlins could hold him back all year. 

 

Sure. He's extremely talented. I just don't know when his callup is going to happen. In keeper leagues, he's absolutely a good stash but in redrafts you have to wonder, is this guy worth holding for two months, just so you can play him in August/September? If you're barely surviving, maybe not.

With that said, this was just posted on Reddit (possible callup tomorrow). Might be BS. But who knows what the Marlins are thinking.

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6 minutes ago, PhilaFanBoy said:

 

Sure. He's extremely talented. I just don't know when his callup is going to happen. In keeper leagues, he's absolutely a good stash but in redrafts you have to wonder, is this guy worth holding for two months, just so you can play him in August/September? If you're barely surviving, maybe not.

With that said, this was just posted on Reddit (possible callup tomorrow). Might be BS. But who knows what the Marlins are thinking.

That Reddit is some guy saying he knows the family. Feels like unfounded speculation/bs

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9 minutes ago, High&Inside said:

That Reddit is some guy saying he knows the family. Feels like unfounded speculation/bs

 

Well of course. Certainly has me wanting to hold Gallen until tomorrow to find out though. Having last pitched on 6/14, tomorrow is his next scheduled start with the Baby Cakes off today.

Edited by PhilaFanBoy

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15 minutes ago, PhilaFanBoy said:

 

Sure. He's extremely talented. I just don't know when his callup is going to happen. In keeper leagues, he's absolutely a good stash but in redrafts you have to wonder, is this guy worth holding for two months, just so you can play him in August/September? If you're barely surviving, maybe not.

With that said, this was just posted on Reddit (possible callup tomorrow). Might be BS. But who knows what the Marlins are thinking.

They have Lopez listed for tomorrow. The guy who is posting definitely sounds confident.

 

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23 minutes ago, PhilaFanBoy said:

 

Sure. He's extremely talented. I just don't know when his callup is going to happen. In keeper leagues, he's absolutely a good stash but in redrafts you have to wonder, is this guy worth holding for two months, just so you can play him in August/September? If you're barely surviving, maybe not.

With that said, this was just posted on Reddit (possible callup tomorrow). Might be BS. But who knows what the Marlins are thinking.

 

Agreed. It's 100pct a gamble and the better the likes of Yamamoto and Hernandez pitch the less likely we see Gallen. I just think the biggest concern for Gallen owners isn't Yamamoto and Hernandez I think it's the Marlins front office and their desire to bring him up at all this season. 

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