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LarryDavid

Veto Trade/Kick Out Owner??? (WHIR 100%)

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2 hours ago, LarryDavid said:

 

Sorry but I really want to understand what you are saying.. Team #1 traded away Lockett, TY, Carson to get CMAC. Team #1 will now most likely select Conner, CMAC, Williams, Juju and Kelce as his 5 when the keeper deadline comes and the rest of his team is back to the draft. Team #2 will now most likely select the 3 he traded for TY, Carson, Lockett and two of the others current on his team like Hunter Henry and Arob for his 5. The rest of his team is back to the draft. 

 

They both keep the salary amount of the 5 selected and minus that from the $200 overall budget to see what draft capital they have. I am lost on how one team would essentially have 7. 

 

I understand the situation completely. It is just something that many leagues don't allow; for reasons like this.

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They’re mad that someone made a great team and is making trades to get better?

 

No veto

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28 minutes ago, dmb3684 said:

 

I understand the situation completely. It is just something that many leagues don't allow; for reasons like this.

 

Gotcha. I have never heard how the other way works. 

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In all of my keeper leagues, we have to decide on our keepers before having the ability to make a trade. Typically our draft is the night before the first game of the season. Keepers are due four weeks before that date (yesterday actually). Trades can happen starting the day keepers are due. So you can only trade your keepers. My 7 keeper auction league we also get $200, and there is 12 teams. I am really suprised that Barkley would go for so much in your league. Around $60 is the average I feel like amongst leagues. I mean he is owned for $53 in my league, and RB's cost a lot. Your league seems un balanced to be totally honest. In all of my keeper leagues, we have to decide on our keepers before having the ability to make a trade. We also have the options to raise players to keep them for longer time. This guarantees the players will be at a fair price. For a 12 team league I would expect much larger rosters. Unless you are not sharing it all with us? No bench? Of course that guy would get last place if his only QB was Garoppolo who went down so early. All in all, I would not veto the trade, but I would give a vote for the other teams in your league (not including you or teams involved in deal). If more then 2/3's vote to cancel it. That is what you have to do. 

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1 hour ago, LarryDavid said:

 

Gotcha. I have never heard how the other way works. 

 

Seems like most in the thread play that way. It is also described above. This is how it should be IMO.

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In all of my years playing fantasy football i have seen faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrr worse deals go down. 

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I have to agree with others. The bigger problem is allowing trades in the offseason before keepers are selected. This isn’t a dynasty league where you keep everyone. You should not be able to trade players you have not committed to keeping.

Also, just because he made an earlier trade to get some “keepers” doesn’t mean he doesn’t get to try to get different players to keep as well.  He didn’t have a number 1 WR before the trade. Now he does. He has a potential number 1 RB now as well in Carson and can keep Penny too if he wants who is a number 2.  Again, while it’s a trade that I would not personally do, it’s not the worst trade I’ve seen. Not even in my top 10. 

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@LarryDavid

 

I get your rules. I think it's very normal to have a keeper league that rolls players over and teams that have excess great players trade them for additional picks, players, and / or collateral in the offseason before the next year's draft. I do it frequently. 

 

You should have sought out the commissioner's corner thread and posted this there. You would have seen much advice on eliminating loser league members. 

 

It's a bad spot, but you clearly have a loser. You can't veto and you can't stop the league champ from constantly going back to the well and pulling off a TRAPE on the league moron over and over. 

 

You've got to convince them to quit because they're ruining the competitive balance of the league for being such a loser. In my keeper leagues infancy I had to talk to a guy and incept him into quitting on his own. It's tough cause we're all friends and it's hard to say that, hey buddy, you're a dumbass and it's ruining the league for everyone else. 

 

I gave tips on how I did this in the commissioners corner thread. Search that out. You aren't the first one to deal with this and you won't be the last. I empathize with your situation. Do your best to hold the league together for the season, replace the moron with someone competent and pray the league champ suffers catastrophic injuries and doesn't repeat. 

 

You can lose a whole league when 1 guy just keeps TRAPING someone and it feels like everyone's lost the league before the season has began... And then they do go on to lose the season to that person. I've seen a league destroyed from similar. 

 

Thanks for the kind words @Boudewijn

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13 hours ago, LarryDavid said:

This is a 12 team, similar scoring to .5 PPR and we use 5 keepers. We have a $200 auction budget and the prices listed below are the prices you can keep a player for...  

 

Is your scoring any different than a standard .5 ppr?  Just curious, you mentioned it was slightly different.   

 

Trying to look through the eyes of owner #2 I see...

 

Quote

the elite guys that are even a little bit more pricey are still very very very valuable because of how inflated they would actually be if they hit the market. For example, Barkley went for $116 last season. 

 

Team #1 (2018 Season Champ)

QB- Goff $3

RB- Conner $1

RB- Damien Williams $5

WR - JuJu $5

WR - Hilton $13

WR - Lockett $7

TE - Kelce $1

FLEX - Carson $18 

 

You get to keep players forever with no cost increase?

 

What exactly is elite in this league?  Barkley for $116 or Conner for $1?  I think that could be part of the basis of owner #2's thinking behind this trade. 

 

From reading your settings, I'd think value in this league has to take into consideration the following....price, potential points, positional scarcity, age and situation.

 

Quote

Team #2 (Last place finisher from 2018.. and most other years) 

QB - Jimmy G $10

RB - Christian McCaffery $58 

RB - Rashaad Penny $5

WR - Allen Robinson $5

WR - Cooper Kupp $16

WR - Robby Anderson $7

TE - Hunter Henry $1 

 

I think the most likely keepers (5) are McCaffery $58, Penny $5, Arob $5, Kupp $16, and Henry $1. Really not that bad, one of the top 3 players, two top 20 Wrs, top 5 TE and a young/cheap RB. 

 

Besides McCaffery Team #2 had plenty of cap to spend in the draft.. like over $120 so I do not think money was an issue.

 

Quote

Sorry i might have misssed a GIANT point... we haven't even selected keepers or drafted for this next season. This is current teams trading before the keeper deadline. Which I actually think the backup (Penny) part makes it worse. You can only keep 5.. so how does trading for his backup help, is he keeping both?

 

Before the trade you think he should keep: McCaffrey $58, Penny $5, Arob $5, Kupp $16, and Henry $1 = $85

 

This would give him $115 on draft day.  He'd have to fill QB, RB2, and possibly WR1 and WR2.  

 

With this trade he can keep:  Carson $18, Penny $5, Lockett $7 and Hilton $13,  Hunter Henry $1 = $44 

 

This would give him $156 on draft day.   He'd have to fill QB, RB2, and possibly WR1 and WR2 

 

(Even though he traded for Kupp, maybe he wouldn't keep him in .5 PPR at that price).

 

The difference is he has an extra $41 to spend on draft day and a handcuffed RB1 on the team that had the most rush yards in the nfl last season and second most attempts. 

 

What is $41 worth?

 

Quote

Julio $40, Mike Williams $21 and the other was Leveon $37 and Luck $15.

 

It appears to be worth quite a bit.

 

He may go into the draft and get DK Metcalf for a very low price, and figure between Lockett and Metcalf he has a cheap WR1 to keep in 2020.

 

Maybe he wants to get some other rookies at a discounted price before they prove what they can do in the NFL.  Kyler Murray, Bryce Love, etc.  The owner that won the league obviously pulled off a coup if he drafted and held Conner for $1 anticipating the Bell holdout.  Did he hold on to him from the year before?

 

Maybe owner #2 believes McCaffrey will regress to his rookie season stats...or somewhere in between.


 

Quote

Carson $18, Lockett $7 and Hilton $13

 

Quote

 If he really wanted those guys he could have just drafted them when they were thrown back. 

 

But he wouldn't have gotten them at those prices, and having Carson at that price guarantees him a RB spot being filled plus a handcuff at a cheaper price than McCaffrey with no handcuff.

 

Two of those players had big ADP jumps this year.  Carson was in the 100's last season, he's in the 40's this year.  Lockett went from the mid 100's to the 50's.  Hilton depended on when you drafted.   So there is no way he'd get all those guys at the prices from last year.

 

I'll stop trying to figure out what owner #2 was thinking right now.

 

I don't think the trade is that bad if owner #2 has a rational plan.  IE:  He wants to spend money on a bunch of rookies and hope he gets some cheap keepers.

 

On the other hand, owner #2 has bad taste in players.  It's understandable to want to boot him for poor performance.

 

I think you should ask, even if it's for entertainment purposes...."what exactly is your plan here?"

Edited by Iron-cock
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6 hours ago, Iron-cock said:

 

Is your scoring any different than a standard .5 ppr?  Just curious, you mentioned it was slightly different.   

 

Trying to look through the eyes of owner #2 I see...

 

 

You get to keep players forever with no cost increase?

 

What exactly is elite in this league?  Barkley for $116 or Conner for $1?  I think that could be part of the basis of owner #2's thinking behind this trade. 

 

From reading your settings, I'd think value in this league has to take into consideration the following....price, potential points, positional scarcity, age and situation.

 

 

 

Before the trade you think he should keep: McCaffrey $58, Penny $5, Arob $5, Kupp $16, and Henry $1 = $85

 

This would give him $115 on draft day.  He'd have to fill QB, RB2, and possibly WR1 and WR2.  

 

With this trade he can keep:  Carson $18, Penny $5, Lockett $7 and Hilton $13,  Hunter Henry $1 = $44 

 

This would give him $156 on draft day.   He'd have to fill QB, RB2, and possibly WR1 and WR2 

 

(Even though he traded for Kupp, maybe he wouldn't keep him in .5 PPR at that price).

 

The difference is he has an extra $41 to spend on draft day and a handcuffed RB1 on the team that had the most rush yards in the nfl last season and second most attempts. 

 

What is $41 worth?

 

 

It appears to be worth quite a bit.

 

He may go into the draft and get DK Metcalf for a very low price, and figure between Lockett and Metcalf he has a cheap WR1 to keep in 2020.

 

Maybe he wants to get some other rookies at a discounted price before they prove what they can do in the NFL.  Kyler Murray, Bryce Love, etc.  The owner that won the league obviously pulled off a coup if he drafted and held Conner for $1 anticipating the Bell holdout.  Did he hold on to him from the year before?

 

Maybe owner #2 believes McCaffrey will regress to his rookie season stats...or somewhere in between.


 

 

 

But he wouldn't have gotten them at those prices, and having Carson at that price guarantees him a RB spot being filled plus a handcuff at a cheaper price than McCaffrey with no handcuff.

 

Two of those players had big ADP jumps this year.  Carson was in the 100's last season, he's in the 40's this year.  Lockett went from the mid 100's to the 50's.  Hilton depended on when you drafted.   So there is no way he'd get all those guys at the prices from last year.

 

I'll stop trying to figure out what owner #2 was thinking right now.

 

I don't think the trade is that bad if owner #2 has a rational plan.  IE:  He wants to spend money on a bunch of rookies and hope he gets some cheap keepers.

 

On the other hand, owner #2 has bad taste in players.  It's understandable to want to boot him for poor performance.

 

I think you should ask, even if it's for entertainment purposes...."what exactly is your plan here?"

 

I still think team 2 is winning the trade. Ill bookmark the thread for seasons end.

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I don't have a solution, but I'll say this. If I am in a pay league, I am NOT playing in a league where you've got a dummy who is essentially giving another team an advantage. I don't recall seeing if this is free or pay.

Obviously trades that we disagree with are a part of the game, but even then there are limits. Especially when money is on the line...collusion or not.

Edited by Semitar

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7 minutes ago, Semitar said:

I don't have a solution, but I'll say this. If I am in a pay league, I am NOT playing in a league where you've got a dummy who is essentially giving another team an advantage. I don't recall seeing if this is free or pay.

Obviously trades that we disagree with are a part of the game, but even then there are limits. Especially when money is on the line...collusion or not.

 

I mean it equates to a 3/4/5 rounder for a 1st and TY and Lockett are both being underdrafted . I don't get the outcry at all. Seems like sour grapes because one owner is getting his team stacked.

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1 minute ago, dmb3684 said:
1 minute ago, dmb3684 said:

 

I mean it equates to a 3/4/5 rounder for a 1st and TY and Lockett are both being underdrafted . I don't get the outcry at all. Seems like sour grapes because one owner is getting his team stacked.

The point of play is for it to be competitive. For me there is no distinction between collusion and and having someone who essentially doesn't know how to play.

The impact of both is the same. I value outcomes more than I do intent.

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1 minute ago, Semitar said:

The point of play is for it to be competitive. For me there is no distinction between collusion and and having someone who essentially doesn't know how to play.

The impact of both is the same. I value outcomes more than I do intent.

 

Right but the trade is objectively fair. 

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10 minutes ago, Semitar said:

The point of play is for it to be competitive. For me there is no distinction between collusion and and having someone who essentially doesn't know how to play.

The impact of both is the same. I value outcomes more than I do intent.

 

The problem is everyone has differing opinions on value of players. There are some on this thread that think it’s a bad trade but it seems more people think it’s a fair deal or at the very least not outrageous. Being in the preseason makes it even harder to judge. If last year someone would have offered Davonte Freeman for James Conner in the preseason you would have been saying how crazy that trade is and the person getting Conner should be kicked out of the league.  The Conner owner would have won that trade though (probably regardless of injury to Freeman). The point is, unless it is blatantly bad, such as Zeke for Josh Rosen, you got to let them run their team. 

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I just skimmed through this thread, so sorry if I missed any key points. But if the guy has been in the league for 6 years, that minimizes the chance he's purposely trying to make his team worse. So I'd give him a longer leash anyway where he has to deal with the consequences of his trade.

As far as the trade itself, it does make some sense. It's not illogical to value Hilton at $13, Carson at $18, and Lockett at $7 more than McCaffrey at $58. In fact, according to fantasy pros, in a 12 team league with a $200 budget, McCaffrey is worth $56, Hilton $31, Carson $29, and Lockett $29. So you could argue to get moving McCaffrey is getting the better value in return.
https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/auction-values/calculator.php

Now I'm not saying it was a good trade for the guy moving McCaffrey. As you mentioned, the top guys are going for a lot of money in your league. So McCaffrey at $58 was probably a steal. But I'm just saying it does make sense why the guy moving McCaffrey might think this is the best move for his team.

As far as your league rules go in terms of allowing guys to be traded before keepers are selected, I'm not a huge fan of that method, but also don't think it's that big of a deal either. I'm currently in a league that allows it, and there haven't been any major issues. In the end the worst keeper on a bad team generally isn't that much worse than the best non-keeper on a good team. So you don't see guys giving up much to upgrade their keepers, if anything. But the biggest downside is that a good team could stack up their team at the deadline, then flip their non-keepers during the offseason for a return. So the price to acquire a "rental" doesn't end up being as steep as it normally would be.

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18 hours ago, Dreams And Dwightmares said:

@LarryDavid

 

I get your rules. I think it's very normal to have a keeper league that rolls players over and teams that have excess great players trade them for additional picks, players, and / or collateral in the offseason before the next year's draft. I do it frequently. 

 

You should have sought out the commissioner's corner thread and posted this there. You would have seen much advice on eliminating loser league members. 

 

It's a bad spot, but you clearly have a loser. You can't veto and you can't stop the league champ from constantly going back to the well and pulling off a TRAPE on the league moron over and over. 

 

You've got to convince them to quit because they're ruining the competitive balance of the league for being such a loser. In my keeper leagues infancy I had to talk to a guy and incept him into quitting on his own. It's tough cause we're all friends and it's hard to say that, hey buddy, you're a dumbass and it's ruining the league for everyone else. 

 

I gave tips on how I did this in the commissioners corner thread. Search that out. You aren't the first one to deal with this and you won't be the last. I empathize with your situation. Do your best to hold the league together for the season, replace the moron with someone competent and pray the league champ suffers catastrophic injuries and doesn't repeat. 

 

You can lose a whole league when 1 guy just keeps TRAPING someone and it feels like everyone's lost the league before the season has began... And then they do go on to lose the season to that person. I've seen a league destroyed from similar. 

 

Thanks for the kind words @Boudewijn

@Dreams And Dwightmares 

I really appreciate the insight. I understand that it is very easy for people to say “I’ve seen worse” or “the rules are dumb” or that the only solution is kicking out the crap owner. Some of those point might even be true, but sometimes the biggest issue is just handled the direct issue at hand. Like even if I just say well that was an idiotic trade and kick out the crap owner, the team that got the deal still gets to keep it and we still shift the league for the season. But really it shifts the good mojo of the entire league going into the season. Yes, the league as a whole will always be better long term by removing crap owners, but there is still always some fragments left behind that usually can’t be address fairly. That’s is why I was even putting out the word veto, I have never vetoed a trade and I hope I never do, but it’s difficult to not want to just do it for the sake of the rest of the league knowing it just isn’t a good deal. 

 

I know a lot of trades are open to interpretation but I also think there needs to be a minimum amount of common sense and current value taking into consideration when looking at a trade, especially in a keeper/dynasty league of any sort. The very common sense part of me says that Cmac is going to be a 1st round talent for the next 5 seasons and it’s even likely by then that Carson, Hilton are even top 10 round guys. Carson is a 25 year old 7th round pick with injuries already and Hilton is going on 30. I’m not even really specifically talking about the merit to veto this trade, I’m just saying I think those are a lot of the very basic thinking points. 

 

Again, I appreciate the input and advise on where to put future commish questions. I don’t even care much about the shift in power the trade made, I just want to make sure our league continues for a long time. 

 

@Boudewijn You’re the man. Appreciate the insight and recommendation. 

 

 

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10 hours ago, dmb3684 said:

 

I still think team 2 is winning the trade. Ill bookmark the thread for seasons end.

 

I think it’s quite possible they win the trade, especially if you look at it like you would DFS...fantasy points/salary = value multiplier.  

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On 8/8/2019 at 12:56 PM, SenatorSpaceman said:

C'mon. You don't veto a trade just because you think it's a bad trade. Let the owners manage their teams how they like unless you can prove cheating. If you strongly suspect cheating but can't prove it, phase that owner out of the league. 

Good deal?  No.  Vetoable?  I don't think so.  Kick someone out?  I don't think so.  I personally don't believe in policing stupidity (unless you specifically have an 'anti-stupidity' rule').

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11 hours ago, Idoolittle said:

I just skimmed through this thread, so sorry if I missed any key points. But if the guy has been in the league for 6 years, that minimizes the chance he's purposely trying to make his team worse. So I'd give him a longer leash anyway where he has to deal with the consequences of his trade.

As far as the trade itself, it does make some sense. It's not illogical to value Hilton at $13, Carson at $18, and Lockett at $7 more than McCaffrey at $58. In fact, according to fantasy pros, in a 12 team league with a $200 budget, McCaffrey is worth $56, Hilton $31, Carson $29, and Lockett $29. So you could argue to get moving McCaffrey is getting the better value in return.
https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/auction-values/calculator.php

Now I'm not saying it was a good trade for the guy moving McCaffrey. As you mentioned, the top guys are going for a lot of money in your league. So McCaffrey at $58 was probably a steal. But I'm just saying it does make sense why the guy moving McCaffrey might think this is the best move for his team.

As far as your league rules go in terms of allowing guys to be traded before keepers are selected, I'm not a huge fan of that method, but also don't think it's that big of a deal either. I'm currently in a league that allows it, and there haven't been any major issues. In the end the worst keeper on a bad team generally isn't that much worse than the best non-keeper on a good team. So you don't see guys giving up much to upgrade their keepers, if anything. But the biggest downside is that a good team could stack up their team at the deadline, then flip their non-keepers during the offseason for a return. So the price to acquire a "rental" doesn't end up being as steep as it normally would be.

 

This was solid insight, appreciate it man. I ended up just putting it through and talking through it with our group. I obviously want to encourage teams to do as they like with their teams, but I want them to look at all the ramifications of a move.. with the main and number #1 being improving their team either for the year or long term. But I do believe there are other factors to consider. 

 

I get the value to current price ratio for sure. I guess it is just hard to clearly breakdown what I know this league to someone else. What I hated about the deal too was there was just no negotiations, the dude sent the 3 guys he was fine not keeping and the dude accepted. I think when you are trading a top 3 player you at least counter or ask for an upgrade on the deal first at minimum. Especially when you know the other team is flush with better options, taking their scraps obviously plays right into their hand. 

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