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John Collins 2019-2020 Outlook

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Is there any speculation on when the appeal to reduce the suspension would be resolved?

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17 hours ago, justaguy said:

Just my 2 cents, but I think John Collins has a more compelling case for a reduction than Ayton. Ayton clearly tried to flush something out of his system by taking the diuretic, thus eliminating any possibility that he had taken an underlying substance accidentally (the question as to whether he took the diuretic accidentally remains open ended but is highly implausible). 

 

John Collins is either very brazen, very stupid, or sincerely didnt know that the supplements he was taking were laced with the prohibited substance. If the "unintentional digestion" exception in the CBA is to have any meaning, it should be applied in cases like this. Otherwise it's an empty phrase that should be done away with altogether.  I find it hard to believe a player would knowingly take a PED and at the very least not try to cover it up. I think it is more likely that the lightly regulated supplement industry might be giving their products an extra boost by adding PEDs for competitive advantage.

 

 

It's been mentioned somewhere either in this thread or another, but HGH is an injectable and afaik it doesn't even come in a pill or supplement form. His cover story doesn't even make sense lol, I don't think there will be a reduction here

 

EDIT: It doesn't come in any pill form that is proven to actually work. It seems some TV pill ads claim they have HGH pills, but mayoclinic says that when ingested HGH goes through your stomach before it can even be absorbed into your body

Edited by s-kayos

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14 minutes ago, s-kayos said:

 

It's been mentioned somewhere either in this thread or another, but HGH is an injectable and afaik it doesn't even come in a pill or supplement form. His cover story doesn't even make sense lol, I don't think there will be a reduction here

 

EDIT: It doesn't come in any pill form that is proven to actually work. It seems some TV pill ads claim they have HGH pills, but mayoclinic says that when ingested HGH goes through your stomach before it can even be absorbed into your body

He didnt test positive for HGH; he tested positive for GHRP-2 - Growth Hormone Releasing Peptide. I'm not a chemist, but the wikipedia page for the drug states that it is "orally active" aka taken by mouth. 

https://www.nba.com/article/2019/11/05/john-collins-hawks-25-game-suspension  (the NBA release that states what JC was tested positive for)

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pralmorelin (wikipedia page for GHRP-2 which says in the first sentence that it is orally active)

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24 minutes ago, whips02 said:

Is there any speculation on when the appeal to reduce the suspension would be resolved?

If you look at Ayton's timeline the appeal came a week after the news broke. NBPA will have speak to Collins and examine the case before hiring another neutral investigator to review. Doubt the NBA reduces these cases. I'm no defense lawyer but what case does either have?  

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17 hours ago, justaguy said:

Just my 2 cents, but I think John Collins has a more compelling case for a reduction than Ayton. Ayton clearly tried to flush something out of his system by taking the diuretic, thus eliminating any possibility that he had taken an underlying substance accidentally (the question as to whether he took the diuretic accidentally remains open ended but is highly implausible). 

 

John Collins is either very brazen, very stupid, or sincerely didnt know that the supplements he was taking were laced with the prohibited substance. If the "unintentional digestion" exception in the CBA is to have any meaning, it should be applied in cases like this. Otherwise it's an empty phrase that should be done away with altogether.  I find it hard to believe a player would knowingly take a PED and at the very least not try to cover it up. I think it is more likely that the lightly regulated supplement industry might be giving their products an extra boost by adding PEDs for competitive advantage.

 

Edit: I realize however, that to maintain the integrity of the system Collins should have the onus of providing evidence that raises some doubt that he took the PEDs intentionally (such as giving copies of the bottle and corresponding ingredients list that the supplements came in). Otherwise players can just take PEDs and claim unintentional digestion; which would undermine the entire drug testing program of the NBA.

 

That's just my take anyways.I find Ayton's case to be much less sympathetic (but that could be bias coming from someone who has JC on their team).

Lol I have both and don't have sympathy but from a fantasy perspective I hope the NBA looks at them and says they are both young kids who made a stupid decision and reduces it to 10 but hey one can dream right?

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21 minutes ago, justaguy said:

He didnt test positive for HGH; he tested positive for GHRP-2 - Growth Hormone Releasing Peptide. I'm not a chemist, but the wikipedia page for the drug states that it is "orally active" aka taken by mouth. 

https://www.nba.com/article/2019/11/05/john-collins-hawks-25-game-suspension  (the NBA release that states what JC was tested positive for)

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pralmorelin (wikipedia page for GHRP-2 which says in the first sentence that it is orally active)

 

You're right, I stand corrected. GHRP-2 is an alternative to HGH as far as I can tell, but it's definitely one of those available in pillls 

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He not getting a reduction. Sorry, but you don’t accidentally injest a peptide aka SARM. You gotta go out of your way to get them. Just do some research on them. I get this is the typical excuse these guys use but Collins knew exactly what he was taking. 

Edited by HK-47

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17 minutes ago, HK-47 said:

He not getting a reduction. Sorry, but you don’t accidentally injest a peptide aka SARM. You gotta go out of your way to get them. Just do some research on them. I get this is the typical excuse these guys use but Collins knew exactly what he was taking. 

But 25 games is excessive no? Suspension I agree with but 10 games for a first offense is more than fair. Just like off court incidents or on court fights I think a case to case basis makes sense. To take away a team's player for a third of the season is harsh imo

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8 minutes ago, Aloon33 said:

But 25 games is excessive no? Suspension I agree with but 10 games for a first offense is more than fair. Just like off court incidents or on court fights I think a case to case basis makes sense. To take away a team's player for a third of the season is harsh imo

But what case does he have? He knew it was 25 games when he did what he did. It’s banned...plain and simple. In baseball it’s half the season btw. Football it’s 25%. Why should it be less here? Issue is the rules were stated and he did what he did. You can disagree but there’s really no reason for them to reduce anything. And yes I have in a couple teams. Just is what it is man.

Edited by HK-47

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24 minutes ago, HK-47 said:

But what case does he have? He knew it was 25 games when he did what he did. It’s banned...plain and simple. In baseball it’s half the season btw. Football it’s 25%. Why should it be less here? Issue is the rules were stated and he did what he did. You can disagree but there’s really no reason for them to reduce anything. And yes I have in a couple teams. Just is what it is man.

25% of the football season is just 4 games.  Why not just ban him for 4 games.  A fair compromise. 

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54 minutes ago, HK-47 said:

He not getting a reduction. Sorry, but you don’t accidentally injest a peptide aka SARM. You gotta go out of your way to get them. Just do some research on them. I get this is the typical excuse these guys use but Collins knew exactly what he was taking. 

I'm not saying that he is/isnt getting a reduction. I think his case for one is more compelling than Ayton's, because the "unintentional digestion " argument is more plausible. He likely won't get a reduction unless he can prove that it was added without his knowledge/consent. Not an incredibly high burden of proof, but one that is unlikely to be met given the circumstances.

 

I'm just not ruling it out entirely cause I wasn't with him when he made the decision lol. My point has always been : it is possible to get a reduction and appears more likely than Ayton. But if Aytons chances are at 1% and his is at 2%, both are very unlikely. Your point and mine aren't mutually exclusive. 

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, StifleTower2 said:

25% of the football season is just 4 games.  Why not just ban him for 4 games.  A fair compromise. 

Huh? He said he wanted 10 games which is less than than percentage wise. 4 out of 82 instead of 25 is fair compromise? In what world?

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Just now, HK-47 said:

Huh? He said he wanted 10 games which is less than than percentage wise. 4 out of 82 instead of 25 is fair compromise? In what world?

A world in which people can take a joke. 

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3 minutes ago, justaguy said:

I'm not saying that he is/isnt getting a reduction. I think his case for one is more compelling than Ayton's, because the "unintentional digestion " argument is more plausible. He likely won't get a reduction unless he can prove that it was added without his knowledge/consent. Not an incredibly high burden of proof, but one that is unlikely to be met given the circumstances.

 

I'm just not ruling it out entirely cause I wasn't with him when he made the decision lol. My point has always been : it is possible to get a reduction and appears more likely than Ayton. But if Aytons chances are at 1% and his is at 2%, both are very unlikely. Your point and mine aren't mutually exclusive. 

 

 

 

 

It’s really not that plausible if you have some knowledge on peptides and or SARM’s.

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39 minutes ago, HK-47 said:

But what case does he have? He knew it was 25 games when he did what he did. It’s banned...plain and simple. In baseball it’s half the season btw. Football it’s 25%. Why should it be less here? Issue is the rules were stated and he did what he did. You can disagree but there’s really no reason for them to reduce anything. And yes I have in a couple teams. Just is what it is man.

How is this a comparison though? Baseball had and still has a drug pandemic so I understand their stance. Ditto football when 90% of their athletes are doing drugs. Basketball has just started having this issue so I don't see how suspending players for a third of the season makes sense? They also upped the amount of games from last year. Prior to this season the most notable names suspended were OJ Mayo, Tyreke Evans, Noah and Meeks so its not like there's some long list. Also, explain why Willie Reed and Darren Collision got less than 10 games for domestic abuse which is a worse offence?

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Just now, StifleTower2 said:

A world in which people can take a joke. 

Lol my bad didn’t catch it. Doing multiple things atm so went over my head ha.

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1 minute ago, Aloon33 said:

How is this a comparison though? Baseball had and still has a drug pandemic so I understand their stance. Ditto football when 90% of their athletes are doing drugs. Basketball has just started having this issue so I don't see how suspending players for a third of the season makes sense? They also upped the amount of games from last year. Prior to this season the most notable names suspended were OJ Mayo, Tyreke Evans, Noah and Meeks so its not like there's some long list. Also, explain why Willie Reed and Darren Collision got less than 10 games for domestic abuse which is a worse offence?

Lol why do I have to explain it man? Go ask the NBA why they do what they do if you don’t like it.

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1 minute ago, HK-47 said:

Lol why do I have to explain it man? Go ask the NBA why they do what they do if you don’t like it.

Case in point you just had a terrible argument thanks man

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11 minutes ago, Aloon33 said:

How is this a comparison though? Baseball had and still has a drug pandemic so I understand their stance. Ditto football when 90% of their athletes are doing drugs. Basketball has just started having this issue so I don't see how suspending players for a third of the season makes sense? They also upped the amount of games from last year. Prior to this season the most notable names suspended were OJ Mayo, Tyreke Evans, Noah and Meeks so its not like there's some long list. Also, explain why Willie Reed and Darren Collision got less than 10 games for domestic abuse which is a worse offence?

A huge tangential aside, but the NBA probably views PEDs as offenses that strike at the "core" of what they are as a league. Assaults are viewed as the business of the criminal law. Alot of agencies and professional bodies have similar attitudes towards offenses that are perceived to be relevant directly to them (and thus the need to make a statement to deter future offenders) vs those that are viewed as the business of courts.

Edited by justaguy
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I'm in to Pro distance running.  The athletes there have to list EVERYTHING that they take.   Eg, what makeup the woman use. What lotions they use, what brand of vitamins they take. The list will be several pages long for a guy that doesnt even use any lotions or supplements. They would NEVER take some random supplement and not know exactly what's in it and these are athletes that are getting paid 50k per year.  Maybe the drug testing isnt as strict, but still, my bs meter is pegged on his story.  Any supplement that nba players are taking is going to come from a professional nutritionist, doctor or some other highly paid professional.  Not "oops, I took some random stuff I got off amazon and I didnt know what was in it"

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41 minutes ago, Aloon33 said:

Case in point you just had a terrible argument thanks man

Not really dude other sports give less for DV.  Chapman got 30 games in MLB for his for example much less than PED suspension. Bottom line as of now the rules are the rules and it was agreed upon by all parties. Whether you think it’s fair or not is irrelevant. 

Edited by HK-47
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So he is sitting in waivers. I am thinking I might be able to hang on tight while he is on my bench. But what day does is 25 game sentence expire? When will he return?

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4 minutes ago, nir said:

So he is sitting in waivers. I am thinking I might be able to hang on tight while he is on my bench. But what day does is 25 game sentence expire? When will he return?

Monday, December 23rd against the Cavs

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