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2020 MLB Sign Stealing Discussion

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1 hour ago, StevieStats said:

It amazes me the Astros never traded for Brett Gardner... Dude was a perfect fit for their system.

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Post of the year nominee

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14 hours ago, StevieStats said:

What a tool, guy uses examples that have nothing to do with the astros nor severity of their scheme. No one is saying sign stealing isn't legal or shouldn't happen, it's the particular spying and real time rely. What an absolute tool.

I do agree with him on regulating out things like home plate collisions.

But Flannery comes off as a guy having a conversation in his own world about something else and doesn't have a clue about what the Astros did.

What an odd take,  and one i disagree with entirely.

What's the difference between banging on a can in 1880 vs doing it in 2019? What's the difference between his camera use and today's?  Higher def? How is his story and less "severe "? The relayed in real time also,  kind of a weird comment as any sign stealing NOT relayed in real time is rather useless,  no?  He literally did it every day of his career.  

The man gave his resume,  and fully admits to sign stealing as a daily profession.  Not sure where the tool and living in his own world stuff come in.  

 

People love a scandal.  Even a made up one i guess

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Michael Baumann, The Ringer: The Treatment for Sign Stealing Isn’t a Cure for MLB’s Disease

Quote

But what if the problem is that MLB teams are using technology to gain an unfair advantage during gameplay? Manfred has already said that Mets manager Carlos Beltrán, who was identified as a ringleader of the banging scheme, will not be disciplined, as he was a player at the time of the incident. But hours after Monday’s report, veteran infielder Logan Morrison named the Yankees and Dodgers, in addition to the Red Sox and Astros, as teams that have used cameras to steal signs. An October article on electronic espionage in baseball by Scott Miller of Bleacher Report cites league sources who also think the Diamondbacks, Indians, Rangers, Cubs, Blue Jays, and Nationals have dabbled in the electronic dark arts. Belleville News-Democrat and MLB.com reporter Jeff Jones added the Brewers to that list shortly after Miller’s piece.

That’s more than a third of the league—apparently if you don’t know what pitch is coming next, you’re behind the times in baseball these days. Will MLB investigate any of those claims? Will any more heads roll?

 

Quote

The real problem, of course, is that the upper echelons of power in baseball have been taken over by people with little regard for norms and customs, to whom human considerations are at best secondary to either the financial or competitive bottom line, and at worst not considered at all. Reading Manfred’s statement on Luhnow, it’s hard not to read the GM’s suspension in particular as punishment for a litany of sins that were not literally part of the big league roster’s decision to go full Gene Krupa on a trash can during games. [...]

It is from this toxic stem that electronic sign stealing sprouted, as well as other even more insidious fruits: suspicious leaguewide spending freezes, service-time manipulation, improprieties surrounding the recruitment of amateur free agents, PEDs, starvation wages for minor leaguers, and a litany of other sins that are far more odious to fans and deleterious to the soul than sniffing out an upcoming breaking ball.

This is the disease, and MLB is treating one symptom. There’s no profit in finding a cure.

 

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1 hour ago, WahooManiac said:

What an odd take,  and one i disagree with entirely.

What's the difference between banging on a can in 1880 vs doing it in 2019? What's the difference between his camera use and today's?  Higher def? How is his story and less "severe "? The relayed in real time also,  kind of a weird comment as any sign stealing NOT relayed in real time is rather useless,  no?  He literally did it every day of his career.  

The man gave his resume,  and fully admits to sign stealing as a daily profession.  Not sure where the tool and living in his own world stuff come in.  

 

People love a scandal.  Even a made up one i guess

Come on, don't be disingenuous. There's a world of difference between recording a guy and watching a guy standing on 3B purposely doing signals out in the open for the world to see and watching him over multiple games and rigging your stadium with high definition spy cameras to peer in at hidden signals to view on a monitor in your dugout area in live time to relay to the hitter.

Again, no absolutely no one is arguing about whether you can steal signs, he's moving the goal posts and using examples that have literally nothing to do with the Astros scheme what so ever and at no point does he even address what the Astros actually did.

What he said is literally the definition of a straw man argument. His comments aren't worthy of discussion.

"A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent."

 

 

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34 minutes ago, tonycpsu said:

And the quote was:

Quote

But what if the problem is that MLB teams are using technology to gain an unfair advantage during gameplay? Manfred has already said that Mets manager Carlos Beltrán, who was identified as a ringleader of the banging scheme, will not be disciplined, as he was a player at the time of the incident. But hours after Monday’s report, veteran infielder Logan Morrison named the Yankees and Dodgers, in addition to the Red Sox and Astros, as teams that have used cameras to steal signs. An October article on electronic espionage in baseball by Scott Miller of Bleacher Report cites league sources who also think the Diamondbacks, Indians, Rangers, Cubs, Blue Jays, and Nationals have dabbled in the electronic dark arts. Belleville News-Democrat and MLB.com reporter Jeff Jones added the Brewers to that list shortly after Miller’s piece.

That’s more than a third of the league—apparently if you don’t know what pitch is coming next, you’re behind the times in baseball these days. Will MLB investigate any of those claims? Will any more heads roll?

So we can add to the list of suspects -- yes they haven't been officially caught or charged as of yet -- the following teams. 

And by caught I mean the Red Sox had the whistle blown on them by 3 former (???) so far anonymous players in a scoop given to the The Athletic and Houston was outed allegedly by Mike Fiers.  So no one at MLB is actively investigating teams unless some one else outs them first.  If comes only through spilled beans so far.  Looks like Logan Morrison spilled a couple (Yankees and Dodgers) and Scott Miller of Bleacher Report seems to have major league "sources" adding in all the others except the Brewers who were added by another reporter.

  • Yankees
  • Dodgers
  • D-Backs
  • Indians
  • Rangers
  • Cubs
  • Blue Jays
  • Nats
  • Brewers

Yep.  Just as I suspected.  At least a half dozen to a dozen teams was my guess.  Add in the Astros and Red Sox to the above and we are at eleven so far.

Wonder if MLB will now investigate any of the nine teams above or will they skate.  If not will we have any managers left on these teams by Opening Day.

Again MLB can't keep ringing their hands over century old rules that just aren't enforceable any more because they grab one or two teams and the others slither by still making this an uneven playing field.  They need to be pro active.

Teams need to USE the tech to protect their signal calling.  Because this stuff isn't going away and everyone suddenly goes back to "stealing" in the "officially sanctioned" way.  Now this coming year people may be ducking down in their foxholes on those other teams until this blows over but who doesn't think that next year they will be back at it with more sophisticated and much harder to detect gear.

Edited by The Big Bat Theory

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I HAVE to believe that, amidst this whole furor over the Astros, efforts have been made to uncover evidence that other teams were using illegal means to steal signs following MLB’s memo.  As far as I know, those efforts have not yielded any credible evidence that that is the case.

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8 minutes ago, BMcP said:

I HAVE to believe that, amidst this whole furor over the Astros, efforts have been made to uncover evidence that other teams were using illegal means to steal signs following MLB’s memo.  As far as I know, those efforts have not yielded any credible evidence that that is the case.

 

this.  BBT is just trying to justify what Boston did.  its a coping mechanism

 

i dont care what some butthurt AAA guy like logan morrison is saying.  the mlb is investigating everyone.  houston and boston have been caught, thats it

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3 hours ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

And the quote was:

So we can add to the list of suspects -- yes they haven't been officially caught or charged as of yet -- the following teams. 

And by caught I mean the Red Sox had the whistle blown on them by 3 former (???) so far anonymous players in a scoop given to the The Athletic and Houston was outed allegedly by Mike Fiers.  So no one at MLB is actively investigating teams unless some one else outs them first.  If comes only through spilled beans so far.  Looks like Logan Morrison spilled a couple (Yankees and Dodgers) and Scott Miller of Bleacher Report seems to have major league "sources" adding in all the others except the Brewers who were added by another reporter.

  • Yankees
  • Dodgers
  • D-Backs
  • Indians
  • Rangers
  • Cubs
  • Blue Jays
  • Nats
  • Brewers

Yep.  Just as I suspected.  At least a half dozen to a dozen teams was my guess.  Add in the Astros and Red Sox to the above and we are at eleven so far.

Wonder if MLB will now investigate any of the nine teams above or will they skate.  If not will we have any managers left on these teams by Opening Day.

Again MLB can't keep ringing their hands over century old rules that just aren't enforceable any more because they grab one or two teams and the others slither by still making this an uneven playing field.  They need to be pro active.

Teams need to USE the tech to protect their signal calling.  Because this stuff isn't going away and everyone suddenly goes back to "stealing" in the "officially sanctioned" way.  Now this coming year people may be ducking down in their foxholes on those other teams until this blows over but who doesn't think that next year they will be back at it with more sophisticated and much harder to detect gear.

 

im disappointing with you.  you are just covering for your team, Boston.  They and houston are the only one named by mlb and mlb investigators.  what logan  (and others) is/are doing is called "hearsay" /attention seeking and its useless here in America.  there is zero evidence right now that any other team has done what boston and houston has done.

 

just admit boston cheated themselves to a WS title and it looks really bad.

Edited by jfazz23
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Just now, jfazz23 said:

 

this.  BBT is just trying to justify what Boston did.  its a coping mechanism

 

i dont care what some butthurt AAA guy like logan morrison is saying.  the mlb is investigating everyone.  houston and boston have been caught, thats it

Yes - treating Logan Morrison of all people as a reliable and impartial source is...let’s say an unwise decision, in all likelihood.

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I have no rooting interest whatsoever in the NYY-BOS bickering, but I don't see why we should look with skepticism toward Morrison's account just because he's a mediocre ball player.  It was a rather pedestrian MLB player who broke this story open (Fiers).  Granted, Fiers' account was first-hand, while Morrison is simply relaying what he says are first-hand accounts, but what does he have to gain here?

BBT was pretty clear above that these teams were suspected (accused) of technology-aided sgn-stealing, and that's clearly the case.  Morrison's accusation is not proven, but it's credible, and should be investigated.

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1 hour ago, tonycpsu said:

I have no rooting interest whatsoever in the NYY-BOS bickering, but I don't see why we should look with skepticism toward Morrison's account just because he's a mediocre ball player.  It was a rather pedestrian MLB player who broke this story open (Fiers).  Granted, Fiers' account was first-hand, while Morrison is simply relaying what he says are first-hand accounts, but what does he have to gain here?

BBT was pretty clear above that these teams were suspected (accused) of technology-aided sgn-stealing, and that's clearly the case.  Morrison's accusation is not proven, but it's credible, and should be investigated.

Just remember Mike Friers was a member of the Astros, he had first hand knowledge what was going on in Houston while Logan Morrison never played for the Dodgers or Yankees. 
 

Well we know those vids that the Astros cheated. You even supplied the whistling one. We heard that Alex Cora is one of the key suspect. He gets hired by the Sox in 2018, and boom this year they are implicated, we heard the Sox used the same technique that he brought over from the Astros. Today, Henry & his cohorts fired Cora  so no doubt in all our minds he is guilty. 
 

If there is any whistling or banging on a drum from Yankee/Dodgers/Nationals etc... or any other teams implicated those vids will be surfacing...

Edited by shakestreet
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2 hours ago, tonycpsu said:

I have no rooting interest whatsoever in the NYY-BOS bickering, but I don't see why we should look with skepticism toward Morrison's account just because he's a mediocre ball player.  It was a rather pedestrian MLB player who broke this story open (Fiers).  Granted, Fiers' account was first-hand, while Morrison is simply relaying what he says are first-hand accounts, but what does he have to gain here?

BBT was pretty clear above that these teams were suspected (accused) of technology-aided sgn-stealing, and that's clearly the case.  Morrison's accusation is not proven, but it's credible, and should be investigated.

Morrison was pretty vocal about being upset about having not been selected for the Derby over Gary Sanchez.  He also mocked Yankee fans for their reactions to his comment, including calling them “stupid.” 
 

Plus, he’s made a side-business out of being a malcontent and avid social-media critic of MLB teams for most of his career. He never even played for the Yankees at the MLB level.  My trouble with him as a credible source has nothing to do with his MLB career performance.  His accusation of the Yankees also did not relate to anything that happened following Manfred’s memo.

Edited by BMcP
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5 hours ago, jfazz23 said:

im disappointing with you.  you are just covering for your team, Boston.  They and houston are the only one named by mlb and mlb investigators.  what logan  (and others) is/are doing is called "hearsay" /attention seeking and its useless here in America.  there is zero evidence right now that any other team has done what boston and houston has done.

just admit boston cheated themselves to a WS title and it looks really bad.

And I'm kind of disappointed in your not addressing what "special duties" Carlos Beltran had with the Yankees last year.  Come on.  The Yankees hired Beltran after the rumors were swirling about Houston and his major role with the Astros' sign stealing in 2017.

And so far the Boston investigation hasn't been concluded so it is still technically "hearsay" for now being based on accounts by 3 players to The Atlantic.  Sure they probably are totally guilty but the investigation only started because of player(s) "hearsay" accounts reported in The Atlantic.  MLB didn't start the investigation until that article came out.  That's why the investigation is just getting under way. 

So more "hearsay" could lead to up to another dozen teams including the NYY being looked at by MLB now.  And regards the Yankees, especially given their hiring of Beltran last year for special services or whatever his title was.   I mean what exactly do you think he was doing for the Yankees last year?  I mean I didn't even know he was with the Yankees last year until all the news reports mentioned that as lead up to what his future would be with the Mets now.  That's when I realized the Yankees may have some serious "splaining" to do even before Logan Morrison came out with his accusations.

And I would not be surprised if investigations will be started regards some of these other clubs.  To think otherwise as in the other 28 teams were all totally innocent little lambs is to be naive about what happens in modern baseball.

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7 minutes ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

And I'm kind of disappointed in your not addressing what "special duties" Carlos Beltran had with the Yankees last year.  Come on.  The Yankees hired Beltran after the rumors were swirling about Houston and his major role with the Astros' sign stealing in 2017.

And so far the Boston investigation hasn't been concluded so it is still technically "hearsay" for now being based on accounts by 3 players to The Atlantic.  Sure they probably are totally guilty but the investigation only started because of player(s) "hearsay" accounts reported in The Atlantic.  MLB didn't start the investigation until that article came out.  That's why the investigation is just getting under way. 

So more "hearsay" could lead to up to another dozen teams including the NYY being looked at by MLB now.  And regards the Yankees, especially given their hiring of Beltran last year for special services or whatever his title was.   I mean what exactly do you think he was doing for the Yankees last year?  I mean I didn't even know he was with the Yankees last year until all the news reports mentioned that as lead up to what his future would be with the Mets now.  That's when I realized the Yankees may have some serious "splaining" to do even before Logan Morrison came out with his accusations.

And I would not be surprised if investigations will be started regards some of these other clubs.  To think otherwise as in the other 28 teams were all totally innocent little lambs is to be naive about what happens in modern baseball.

 

still pure speculation on your part

innocent until proven guilty etc etc etc

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“Hearsay” is a legal term defined by specific rules of evidence describing what is admissible in court.  I have no idea how it’s relevant to a conversation of this topic.

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2 hours ago, BMcP said:

“Hearsay” is a legal term defined by specific rules of evidence describing what is admissible in court.  I have no idea how it’s relevant to a conversation of this topic.

 

just thought of something.  anyone else think Betts should be stripped of his 2018 MVP? 80% gain in wRC+ from 2017 to 2018.  OPS career is 893 but was 1.07 in 2018. not to mention he only played 136 games in 18'.  looks VEEEERY suspicious.  

 

jd mart and tendi are a little suspicious too...

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4 hours ago, jfazz23 said:

 

just thought of something.  anyone else think Betts should be stripped of his 2018 MVP? 80% gain in wRC+ from 2017 to 2018.  OPS career is 893 but was 1.07 in 2018. not to mention he only played 136 games in 18'.  looks VEEEERY suspicious.  

 

jd mart and tendi are a little suspicious too...

I could understand your past couple posts to a point but cmon now.. getting a little finger pointy now arent we?

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4 hours ago, jfazz23 said:

 

just thought of something.  anyone else think Betts should be stripped of his 2018 MVP? 80% gain in wRC+ from 2017 to 2018.  OPS career is 893 but was 1.07 in 2018. not to mention he only played 136 games in 18'.  looks VEEEERY suspicious.  

 

jd mart and tendi are a little suspicious too...

You Yankee fans are really taking it up a notch in terms of being obnoxious about this. 

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22 hours ago, StevieStats said:

It amazes me the Astros never traded for Brett Gardner... Dude was a perfect fit for their system.


He’d actually be good to disguise the banging...

 

Somebody hears some banging before a pitch: “Oh, that’s probably just Brett Gardner.”

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1 hour ago, Slatykamora said:

You Yankee fans are really taking it up a notch in terms of being obnoxious about this. 

Slaty, please tell us what opinions are actually permissible to express on a discussion forum in a conversation regarding repeated and systematic cheating.

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Here we go with more Mets' soap opera stuff.  Will they or won't they:

Quote

Joel Sherman of the New York Post writes that "there is a lot of conflict" within the Mets organization as to whether Carlos Beltran should remain the manager.

Beltran has yet to manage a game for the Mets -- he was hired in November -- but the former outfielder played a role in the Astros' sign-stealing scheme in 2017 and the fallout of MLB's investigation has already caused two managers (and one general manager) to lose their jobs. Whether the Mets want to move forward with Beltran or cut ties and bring in a new skipper, a decision will have to be made very soon. The opening of spring training is less than a month away.

Source: Joel Sherman on Twitter                  Jan 16, 2020, 8:51 AM ET

Oh please keep him so the NY press can go wild and crazy about this every day until the Mets finally have to do the right thing.

Mets:  "Are you entertained!"   Me:  Oh yes.

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1 hour ago, BMcP said:

Slaty, please tell us what opinions are actually permissible to express on a discussion forum in a conversation regarding repeated and systematic cheating.

Permissible? You can say whatever you want. I'm conveying an opinion about someone else opinion. It's like listening to a rich person who's house got robbed and they start demanding retributions that have zero precedent.

We didn't strip roid users of awards. So, why here?  When the benefits are even less provable? His numbers improved both at home and road from 2017-2018. The best # you can tangably point too is Betts 4% difference in BB rate between road and home in 2018. When he did not have such a split in 2019.

Even that is still not objective proof due the random nature of baseball numbers. He inferenced that is was a major boost though and used 2017 has his baseline(his down year) Painting that narrative to it's extreme. If he had suggested a small boost. I wouldn't bother saying anything because that isn't really dis-agreeable.

Edited by Slatykamora
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