jfazz23

2020 MLB Sign Stealing Discussion

Recommended Posts

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2019/11/16/astros-emails-reveal-how-deep-cheating-scandal-went-in-2017/amp/

 

Gross...and that former catcher AJ guy had the gall to denigrate the Yankees for calling them out on this ****e.

EDIT: “He cheated all the way to the 2017 World Series over the Los Angeles Dodgers as the Astros' manager.”  (Wikipedia)

Edited by BMcP

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, colepenhagen said:

well they kinda are if they are taking a clean players roster spot and even league minimum.

🤷‍♂️ That’s a bold claim. If you look at the steroid era how many we’re fringe players? Most of the users were already stars trying to one up each other. At the end of the day it is about morals and integrity, and individual choice. So sign stealing doesn’t bother me, because it’s just a game. People cheat or try to get ahead in every industry and in industries more important than baseball. Life isn’t fair and it is never going to be.

Edited by FitzMagic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, FitzMagic said:

🤷‍♂️ That’s a bold claim. If you look at the steroid era how many we’re fringe players? Most of the users were already stars trying to one up each other. At the end of the day it is about morals and integrity, and individual choice. So sign stealing doesn’t bother me, because it’s just a game. People cheat or try to get ahead in every industry and in industries more important than baseball. Life isn’t fair and it is never going to be.

How Hobbesian.  The point is, it’s not “just a game.”  As Fiers and many others have noted, the Astros’ cheating was injurious to the livelihoods of pitchers trying to make it in the bigs.  These people have families depending on them to earn a sustainable income.  Dismissing that as if it’s meaningless simply because it involves playing a game is willful blindness.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, BMcP said:

How Hobbesian.  The point is, it’s not “just a game.”  As Fiers and many others have noted, the Astros’ cheating was injurious to the livelihoods of pitchers trying to make it in the bigs.  These people have families depending on them to earn a sustainable income.  Dismissing that as if it’s meaningless simply because it involves playing a game is willful blindness.

It’s just a game. What are you going to do? Correct the wrongs here? The deed is done. No use getting worked up over it. Just like the Wall Street guys got away with it too. It’s life. 

Edited by FitzMagic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, FitzMagic said:

It’s just a game. What are you going to do? Correct the wrongs here?

Well...yeah, sure.  For starters.

 

And then maybe put in place some new rules designed to deter this sort of behavior in the future.

 

I mean, you could say, by way of analogy: “Welp.  Certain individuals murder lots of people.  But hey you know what?  That’s life.  And life ain’t fair.  So why bother doing anything about it.”  But the imperfections of life shouldn’t preclude you from trying to do something to improve life.

 

 

Edited by BMcP
  • Like 3
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, BMcP said:

Well...yeah, sure.  For starters.

 

And then maybe put in place some new rules designed to deter this sort of behavior in the future.

 

I mean, you could say, by way of analogy: “Welp.  Certain individuals murder lots of people.  But hey you know what?  That’s life.  And life ain’t fair.  So why bother doing anything about it.”  But the imperfections of life shouldn’t preclude you from trying to do something to improve life.

 

 

I mean, to be fair, murder and sign stealing are nowhere close to comparable. I watch movies where actors cheat with stunt devils. It doesn’t make it any less entertaining is my point. Baseball is entertainment. When it comes to cheating in baseball, it is the same as in life. Sometimes you just have to be twice as good as the cheaters, otherwise you will never win. That’s never going to change. There are always going to be a certain segment that will find a way to game the system. John Coppolella was banned for life and I seriously doubt no other GMs are doing the same thing right now. Create a fall guy, act like you are sending a message, then move on. That’s how it goes. I am of the conclusion that the people with the power aren’t interested in fairness and bringing down the hammer. So, why should I give a damn? Live your best life, my friend. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, FitzMagic said:

I mean, to be fair, murder and sign stealing are nowhere close to comparable. I watch movies where actors cheat with stunt devils. It doesn’t make it any less entertaining is my point. Baseball is entertainment. When it comes to cheating in baseball, it is the same as in life. Sometimes you just have to be twice as good as the cheaters, otherwise you will never win. That’s never going to change. There are always going to be a certain segment that will find a way to game the system. John Coppolella was banned for life and I seriously doubt no other GMs are doing the same thing right now. Create a fall guy, act like you are sending a message, then move on. That’s how it goes. I am of the conclusion that the people with the power aren’t interested in fairness and bringing down the hammer. So, why should I give a damn? Live your best life, my friend. 

Yeah, i agree - more of a logically apposite analogy than a moral one.  Your perspective just sounds like any counter-action is just utterly futile.  I want MLB to use this opportunity to send a message - and I hope it will result in some rules changes that will effectively prevent this sort of behavior from ever recurring.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, FitzMagic said:

🤷‍♂️ That’s a bold claim. If you look at the steroid era how many we’re fringe players? Most of the users were already stars trying to one up each other. At the end of the day it is about morals and integrity, and individual choice. So sign stealing doesn’t bother me, because it’s just a game. People cheat or try to get ahead in every industry and in industries more important than baseball. Life isn’t fair and it is never going to be.

how many used and got away with it? a hell of a lot more than the handful that got busted. there are plenty of fringe players that got busted/ get away with it. only reason they made it that far was with "help"
dee Gordon for example. how long could of his career/lack there of gone if he was clean we will never know.

plenty of scrubs on this list  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_suspended_for_performance-enhancing_drugs

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/17/2019 at 11:04 AM, FitzMagic said:

It’s just a game. What are you going to do? Correct the wrongs here? The deed is done. No use getting worked up over it. Just like the Wall Street guys got away with it too. It’s life. 

So we stand back and let the "Wall Street guys" create yet another Great Depression and destroy millions of more lives world wide?  What a loser view of the world that is.  "Hey look, a truck is coming to run me over.  Whatever, it's life ... err, death."

Yeah stealing signs isn't up there with Great Depressions but sitting on your thumbs every time something negative happens from baseball to murder seems like the worst possible response. 

And I don't even think it is that big of deal, the stealing signs thing that is.  But I'm cynical and figure Houston just got caught and plenty of other teams do this too like most all of them.  So change the technology viewpoint to helping teams like, for the third and last time I'm mentioning it, using the NFL model of plays given to a QB.  Hey they invented earbuds just for this set-up in baseball, hah.  That's the way to make it NOT "it's life" because life is totally unfair and I just shut down and give up. 

Either that or let all teams do it full time as part of the game and that keeps a level playing field too and would be pretty fun to watch, heh.  Annoucer: "So Billy.  Looks like our official telescope-vision indicates that Radder will be throwing a slider down and away this time.  Or are they gonna call an audible?"  Better than all the "promos" they yadda yadda between pitches.  "And the 6th pitch of the 4th inning is brought to you by Sincere Finances.  If you have money to invest this is the way to lose it.  Sincere Finances, the official financial scammer of the Mudville Nine."

Edited by The Big Bat Theory
  • Like 6
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

So we stand back and let the "Wall Street guys" create yet another Great Depression and destroy millions of more lives world wide?  What a loser view of the world that is.  "Hey look, a truck is coming to run me over.  Whatever, it's life ... err, death."

Yeah stealing signs isn't up there with Great Depressions but sitting on your thumbs every time something negative happens from baseball to murder seems like the worst possible response. 

And I don't even think it is that big of deal, the stealing signs thing that is.  But I'm cynical and figure Houston just got caught and plenty of other teams do this too like most all of them.  So change the technology viewpoint to helping teams like, for the third and last time I'm mentioning it, using the NFL model of plays given to a QB.  Hey they invented earbuds just for this set-up in baseball, hah.  That's the way to make it NOT "it's life" because life is totally unfair and I just shut down and give up. 

Either that or let all teams do it full time as part of the game and that keeps a level playing field too and would be pretty fun to watch, heh.  Annoucer: "So Billy.  Looks like our official telescope-vision indicates that Radder will be throwing a slider down and away this time.  Or are they gonna call an audible?"  Better than all the "promos" they yadda yadda between pitches.  "And the 6th pitch of the 4th inning is brought to you by Sincere Finances.  If you have money to invest this is the way to lose it.  Sincere Finances, the official financial scammer of the Mudville Nine."

 

this.

 

call me old fashion but i still value Justice...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To me, this speaks more about how the sport is still behind technology advances. There seems to be a ton of creative ways to exploite tech to steal signs.

If you park your car in a shady neighborhood and leave valuables visually exposed. Don't be surprised when you come back to find your windows smashed and stuff stolen.

No, the people who stole your stuff are not justified. They are still robbers. Yet, you also need to have enough wisdom to not leave valuable stuff inside your car when you know the environment around you is questionable.

If teams have the creative in methods of stealing signs, they should also have the creativity to deliver signs in a more secure way. Instead of baseball cracking down against tech? Why don't they just embrace it and allow pitchers, catchers and coaches use it to deliver signs?

 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Punishment must be severe and just.  Offending players need to enter a dispersal draft and sent to either the orioles, pirates, tigers, or mariners.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't understand why teams don't just change their signs during the game. I am sure it wouldn't take Alan Turing to figure out the changes but if you know the other team knows your signs, you should be able to take advantage of that yourself by switching signs and mixing them up. Is that annoying ? I'm sure. But it would pretty much put a stop to it.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, fletch44 said:

I don't understand why teams don't just change their signs during the game. I am sure it wouldn't take Alan Turing to figure out the changes but if you know the other team knows your signs, you should be able to take advantage of that yourself by switching signs and mixing them up. Is that annoying ? I'm sure. But it would pretty much put a stop to it.

You can only do so much. The sign stealers have all the access to use tech and all you can do is switch up your non verbal language. It's harder than you think. There are people out there who are very proficient at decoding and the coded language baseball teams currently use is just not that complex. 

 

1 hour ago, kidtwentytwo said:

Punishment must be severe and just.  Offending players need to enter a dispersal draft and sent to either the orioles, pirates, tigers, or mariners.

Gonna assume this was part touge/cheek. Still, we don't know how widespread this has been. You want to make an example of the Astro's but you also don't want to be to severe about it at first. When it's an issue the environment is fostering, and/or passive stance against it. 

We didn't suspend anyone that tested positive for performance enhancers in 2003. No one was punished for cheating until after the MLB set up an official program against it.

So you need prove the Astro's were cheating at the time MLB was making honest efforts to crack down.

 

Edited by Slatykamora

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Slatykamora said:

To me, this speaks more about how the sport is still behind technology advances. There seems to be a ton of creative ways to exploite tech to steal signs.

If you park your car in a shady neighborhood and leave valuables visually exposed. Don't be surprised when you come back to find your windows smashed and stuff stolen.

No, the people who stole your stuff are not justified. They are still robbers. Yet, you also need to have enough wisdom to not leave valuable stuff inside your car when you know the environment around you is questionable.

If teams have the creative in methods of stealing signs, they should also have the creativity to deliver signs in a more secure way. Instead of baseball cracking down against tech? Why don't they just embrace it and allow pitchers, catchers and coaches use it to deliver signs?

Totally agree.  That is what I keep saying here.  Make technology your friend and not your enemy.  Because technology is NOT going to go away.  Create it and they will come ... and use it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Slatykamora said:

You want to make an example of the Astro's but you also don't want to be to severe about it at first. When it's an issue the environment is fostering, and/or passive stance against it. 

We didn't suspend anyone that tested positive for performance enhancers in 2003. No one was punished for cheating until after the MLB set up an official program against it.

So you need prove the Astro's were cheating at the time MLB was making honest efforts to crack down.

 

 

I don't think "the environment is fostering" it is a defense that the Astros will try.  Nor do I think they will go down the route of the mlb not "making honest efforts to crack down".  Neither are really relevant.  There are clear rules against it, and the Astros broke those rules.  There will be severe consequences. 

And comparing against individual player conduct (PEDs) is not really relevant.  The last thing the MLB wants to see is cheating on an organizational level.

I'd look to recent examples of the Braves prospects scandal of 2017 and the Cardinals password scandal of 2016 as a starting point assuming the mlb investigation finds damning evidence (which, based on the data we've seen so far should not be difficult).

 

 

Edited by kenag122002

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think MLB will make an example of the Astros because that’s what they do unless you’re a sacred cow.  However if you don’t want your signs stolen don’t make them easy to steal.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, kenag122002 said:

 

I don't think "the environment is fostering" it is a defense that the Astros will try.  Nor do I think they will go down the route of the mlb not "making honest efforts to crack down".  Neither are really relevant.  There are clear rules against it, and the Astros broke those rules.  There will be severe consequences. 

And comparing against individual player conduct (PEDs) is not really relevant.  The last thing the MLB wants to see is cheating on an organizational level.

I'd look to recent examples of the Braves prospects scandal of 2017 and the Cardinals password scandal of 2016 as a starting point assuming the mlb investigation finds damning evidence (which, based on the data we've seen so far should not be difficult).

 

 

 

 

Wow, article just came out referenced the same topics:  https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28116718/mlb-commissioner-says-punishments-severe-sign-stealing-scandal

"Major League Baseball commissioner Rob Manfred said he believes the sign-stealing scandal that has engulfed the sport involves only the Houston Astros and that he can mete out discipline beyond the standard fine and draft pick penalties if necessary."

"The maximum penalties Manfred has handed out include a $2 million fine and docking of two first-round draft picks after a St. Louis Cardinals employee illicitly accessed the Astros' proprietary database, and a ban on international signings after an investigation into the Atlanta Braves' practices in Latin America."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's funny to me that all the way back in the 1800s this was going on,  and not that different from the way Houston allegedly has gone about it. And tech ws first used 119 years ago for sign theft! Lol 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_stealing#Notable_incidents

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a reddit post from four weeks ago, during the World Series, in which a random reddit user predicts an Astros sign stealing controversy with additional details. Someone brought it up during the jomboy AMA last night and it's rightfully gaining traction.

Quote

I had a dream a couple weeks back when the astros were playing the rays, it was that after the post season finished a news story came out that the astros had a team of people deciphering signs with cameras and then that team relayed the signal to transponders that were worn in the cleats of the top (trusted not to snitch) astros players, the transponders would vibrate according to what pitch was coming (example: once for fastball, twice for off speed)

But it was just a dream haha. That wouldn't happen.

 

 

"But it was just a dream haha. That wouldn't happen" is seemingly sarcastic. Additionally, Joel Sherman wrote an article the other day in which there was speculation that teams(not even necessarily HOU) have/could use buzzers attached to their body, concealed with a bandaid, to receive signs. This reddit user almost corroborates Sherman's report here.

The reddit user doesn't have a huge reddit history, but he seems to be a Super Smash Bros player? Possibly into Radiohead? Almost certainly coincidental, but this was also posted on the day Taubman was officially fired. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, kenag122002 said:

"Major League Baseball commissioner Rob Manfred said he believes the sign-stealing scandal that has engulfed the sport involves only the Houston Astros and that he can mete out discipline beyond the standard fine and draft pick penalties if necessary."

"The maximum penalties Manfred has handed out include a $2 million fine and docking of two first-round draft picks after a St. Louis Cardinals employee illicitly accessed the Astros' proprietary database, and a ban on international signings after an investigation into the Atlanta Braves' practices in Latin America."

That's the thing, Rob me lad (may I call you Rob).  You only caught the Astros so of course you say that.  If say you caught the Tigers too (but they had a flawed system which explains how they didn't quite make the playoffs, haha) -- "Hey the next pitch is a curve outside.  Whoops sorry you caught a high fastball right on the chin ... me bad"  -- then you would say it only involves those two teams.  See how you are thinking, Robbie me boy?

Love the dream about vibrating cleats.  I see a "Nerds Do Baseball" movie or sitcom in the works "inspired" by this scandal a-comin.'

Also loved the link in a post above to past sign stealing scandals from over a hundred years past involving people hidden behind fences in the outfield and them using the telegraph to relay signs.  Technology is just so much fun to use in any century that baseball has never ever failed to use it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the end of the day, cheating pays off. It's not like the Asstros will lose their WS title or bonuses will be given back, or people will lose their jobs. Oh no, just Brandon Taubman loses his job because the Asstros draw the line there.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.