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2020 MLB Sign Stealing Discussion

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1 hour ago, FitzMagic said:

At the end of the day, cheating pays off. It's not like the Asstros will lose their WS title or bonuses will be given back, or people will lose their jobs. Oh no, just Brandon Taubman loses his job because the Asstros draw the line there.

 

what if they lose, lets say 2 or 3 1st round draft picks and all of their international money for 3 years?

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1 hour ago, jfazz23 said:

 

what if they lose, lets say 2 or 3 1st round draft picks and all of their international money for 3 years?

 

Sounds fair to me.

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Interesting as there is a rumor that Alex Cora maybe implicated with the Astros. He was a bench coach with the Astros in 2017.  Just what baseball doesn't need is multiple WS but in doubt with scandals. 

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8 minutes ago, Low and Away said:

Interesting as there is a rumor that Alex Cora maybe implicated with the Astros. He was a bench coach with the Astros in 2017.  Just what baseball doesn't need is multiple WS but in doubt with scandals. 

 

yanks automatically win the previous 3 world series!!!!

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1 minute ago, jfazz23 said:

 

yanks automatically win the previous 3 world series!!!!

Dodgers would have a better claim in two of those.

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On 11/21/2019 at 1:52 PM, FitzMagic said:

At the end of the day, cheating pays off. It's not like the Asstros will lose their WS title or bonuses will be given back, or people will lose their jobs. Oh no, just Brandon Taubman loses his job because the Asstros draw the line there.

I have a strong feeling this will prove to be not true. This article from Fangraphs does a good job of highlighting some of the recent punishments doled out by MLB: https://blogs.fangraphs.com/what-the-astros-might-deserve/. I think the biggest punishment will come down to the originator of the cheating and I think the two most likely possibilities are the owner or the GM. If they have sufficient evidence, it won't surprise me in the least to see the ban hammer come out. 

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On 11/21/2019 at 1:04 PM, kenag122002 said:

 

Sounds fair to me.


not remotely enough imo. They used advanced cheating to steal a championship. wouldn't most franchises glady exchange some draft picks and international money for that? I mean, the point of the picks and $ is to win a title. it almost feels like a loop. 

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It's not "fair", but there's no version of fair that changes the outcome.  Even in the highly improbable event that the championship were somehow officially stripped, it doesn't change history.  Everyone knows the Astros were champions in 2017, and no asterisk in a record book or taking down of banners changes that.  So what else could be "fair" for this level of offense?

Jeff Passan said recently on an ESPN podcast that the maximum fine allowed is $2 million, which is a rounding error on a slightly above replacement-level player's contract for one season.   So a direct financial penalty isn't going to right this wrong.  Multiple years of first round picks taken away will hurt them on the field, which will translate into some lost revenue as well, but you're right that any team would roll the dice on that proposition and hope to come out ahead.

I'm sure there's a combination of the maximum fine, a number of picks lost, and suspensions of the GM, coach, and any players that were involved that would add up to the financial benefit of winning the title, but the math gets pretty fuzzy there.  The right move here is probably just to do enough to deter future teams from cheating and then start a working group to analyze how to put an end to sign-stealing, which ironically will almost certainly involving some use of technology to transmit signs securely.

As long as the tech exists, it will be used to cheat, and the one thing the Astros are correct about is that they're not the only ones.  Better to use the tech to combat the cheating, which could also help pace of play by doing away with the increasingly complicated sets of signs in place to prevent them from being stolen.

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If a team is willing to run an illegal video feed in order to steal signs, then am I supposed to believe that they may not try to intercept verbal communications? Wouldn't the hitter hear the catcher, anyway, in a lot of cases? I don't understand the case for "technology" somehow solving the problem of teams being willing to blatantly cheat and steal from their opponents. There's not going to be a magic bullet if you're not willing to hammer teams that are caught doing it.

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1 hour ago, Hanghow said:

f a team is willing to run an illegal video feed in order to steal signs, then am I supposed to believe that they may not try to intercept verbal communications?

 

Why would you assume verbal?  Tech is small enough that the catcher could easily tap a tiny device out of view of the batter, baserunners, and opposing coaches.  The signal from that could be sent to a pitcher via earpiece, a vibration in their glove, or whatever.  Everything could be strongly-encrypted, and if a team can easily break modern encryption algorithms and not get caught, well, they can get themselves a lot more than a heads-up that a breaking ball is coming.

And of course there's nothing saying MLB has to use tech *or* punish cheaters.  They can do both.

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2 hours ago, Hanghow said:

If a team is willing to run an illegal video feed in order to steal signs, then am I supposed to believe that they may not try to intercept verbal communications? Wouldn't the hitter hear the catcher, anyway, in a lot of cases? I don't understand the case for "technology" somehow solving the problem of teams being willing to blatantly cheat and steal from their opponents. There's not going to be a magic bullet if you're not willing to hammer teams that are caught doing it.

The NFL uses direct signal calling from a coach to the QB.  Put an earbud in one ear of a pitcher or maybe some sort of earpiece in his "reinforced" cap and call the pitches from the dugout.  The NFL has made signal calling secure.  It really isn't rocket science.

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On 11/26/2019 at 5:47 PM, The Big Bat Theory said:

The NFL uses direct signal calling from a coach to the QB.  Put an earbud in one ear of a pitcher or maybe some sort of earpiece in his "reinforced" cap and call the pitches from the dugout.  The NFL has made signal calling secure.  It really isn't rocket science.

That assumes you’re comfortable leaving the catcher with no role in calling pitches - the one player best positioned to figure out what will work against a hitter he is directly adjacent to and has been studying closely all game.

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35 minutes ago, BMcP said:

That assumes you’re comfortable leaving the catcher with no role in calling pitches - the one player best positioned to figure out what will work against a hitter he is directly adjacent to and has been studying closely all game.

just have catcher call it with a microphone in code. alpha bravo Charlie wisko tango Charlie wisko alpha bravo. sp shakes. meeting on the mound...

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5 hours ago, colepenhagen said:

just have catcher call it with a microphone in code. alpha bravo Charlie wisko tango Charlie wisko alpha bravo. sp shakes. meeting on the mound...

 

Omaha, Omaha

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On 11/26/2019 at 2:47 PM, The Big Bat Theory said:

The NFL uses direct signal calling from a coach to the QB.  Put an earbud in one ear of a pitcher or maybe some sort of earpiece in his "reinforced" cap and call the pitches from the dugout.  The NFL has made signal calling secure.  It really isn't rocket science.

Cool, now the catcher has no idea what's coming.

Its much simpler to embed some kind of switch on the catcher's glove or wherever it can be hidden from view, and give the pitcher a receiver. No matter what they eventually do, I really doubt that teams ever start sending in all pitch calling from the dugout rather than having the catcher make the calls

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This is so much worse than a black eye for baseball.  It throws into doubt the integrity of years of results and erodes fan confidence that they are watching a fair product.  I mean, it's all bread and circuses anyway, but the least they can do is ensure that the teams play by the rules.

[...]

Edited by tonycpsu
No politics here.

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Ken Rosenthal and Evan Drellich, The Athletic: MLB’s sign-stealing controversy broadens: Sources say the Red Sox used video replay room illegally in 2018

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Before the 2018 season, after years of barely enforcing its broad rules regarding replay rooms, the league made it crystal clear: Replay rooms cannot be used to help steal signs. The newly clarified rules, in combination with the fines the league levied on the Red Sox and Yankees and warnings it issued in ’17, were intended to end the replay-room chicanery. 

For the Red Sox, and possibly other clubs, it did not.

Three people who were with the Red Sox during their 108-win 2018 season told The Athletic that during that regular season, at least some players visited the video replay room during games to learn the sign sequence opponents were using. The replay room is just steps from the home dugout at Fenway Park, through the same doors that lead to the batting cage. Every team’s replay staff travels to road games, making the system viable in other parks as well. [...]

“It’s cheating,” one person who was with the 2018 Red Sox said. “Because if you’re using a camera to zoom in on the crotch of the catcher, to break down the sign system, and then take that information and give it out to the runner, then he doesn’t have to steal it.”

The Red Sox declined to comment at the time of publication.

Major League Baseball said in a statement, “The Commissioner made clear in a September 15, 2017 memorandum to clubs how seriously he would take any future violation of the regulations regarding use of electronic equipment or the inappropriate use of the video replay room. Given these allegations, MLB will commence an investigation into this matter.

 

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21 hours ago, larfboy said:

Damn...the Dodgers got hosed back to back World Series...

 

yanks would have beaten them both times anyways. 😁

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Houston loses it's manager for a year and important draft picks:

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According to The Athletic, the Astros will lose first- and second-round picks each of the next two years and see both manager A.J. Hinch and GM Jeff Luhnow suspended for a year as punishment for illegally stealing signs during the 2017 season.

The team will also be levied a $5 million fine, which is the maximum the league constitution allows. Former assistant GM Brandon Taubman, who was fired after a separate scandal two months ago, is getting placed on baseball's ineligible list. Former Astros bench coach and current Red Sox manager Alex Cora could also face a suspension at a later date. No players are being punished. That hardly seems right, but it makes things a whole lot easier for the league in not having to fight the MLBPA.

Source: The Athletic   Jan 13, 2020, 2:03 PM ET

 

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Ban Cora and Hinch for life. Both overrated and suck anyway. 

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This should have lifetime bans.  Also interesting that no players - who were completely involved as well - seem to be getting punished. 

They cheated to win the World Series.  Full Stop.

Cheating to win is no different that using steroids.  Every offensive player should be banned from HOF. 

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11 minutes ago, Sonny_D said:

Ban Cora and Hinch for life. Both overrated and suck anyway. 

The majority of managers are overrated.  

 

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