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2020 MLB Sign Stealing Discussion

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4 minutes ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

I don't think it was that big of a deal because I think every team does something these days and has for some time.

"Technology" banned but sign stealing otherwise is okay and actually encouraged?  That's stupid.  Toronto stole signs for years using sophisticated cameras from a hotel room (there was a hotel inside the park with rooms facing the outfield) at their old park.  Every team in the AL East changed up signs like every inning because everyone knew they were doing it.  No one got on them for using technology.  And cameras are technology too.

Technology isn't going away.  Use it to hide your signs.  Don't ban it.

And yes I'm a Sox fan but I defended Houston before the Sox video room thing came out.

Probably.  Or they would have used Toronto's technology of cameras.  I'd guess a lot of teams still use cameras one way of the other.  Hell, a good quality cell phone (or slightly "enhanced" mock-up one) being used by a "fan" in the outfield while apparently just texting friends during a game could be used now.  You cannot stop the march of technology.  Use it to hide stuff and get off the high horse.  The technology genie is out of the bottle and will never be put back in.

 

Yep.  Lead to one of their worst years ever, haha.

I concur.  Yes both Houston and Boston broke rules and have to be punished but the rules are silly in this day and age because sign stealing has always been condoned and encouraged in baseball.  Saying one method of sign stealing is bad and another is good makes no sense.  It's like saying it's good to hand in a hand written book report but bad to hand in a word processor / printed out one.  Makes zero sense to me.  Like the rules committee is living back in the 18th century.

Again you CAN use technology to hide your signs just as well as steal them.  That's the "cure".  Not pretending you don't live in the 21st century.

 

 

breaking news!!!! redsox fans dont think its a big deal and believe it actually HURT them!!!!

🤣

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56 minutes ago, BxBOMBERs28 said:

oh yea are you suuuuure about that??

 

2017 Astros Postseason Offensive Stats 

Home 9 games 

Runs/G - 5.7

Average - .273

HRs - 18

Ks - 49

OBP - .343

 

Road 9 games 

Runs/G - 3.0 

Average - .208 

HRs - 9

Strikeouts - 80 

OBP - .284

this proves nothing by the way BUT THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU CHEAT. Now we have a right to question everything the Astros have done the last few years. This Championship is forever tarnished and that’s  the biggest punishment there is. They deserve everything they received and more 

Im not getting into who deserves what.  The topic is advantage,  and you just cited the smallest of samples.  Read the articles.  While there seems to be some gains,  mostly this all looks like a bunch of noise.  

Tarnished or not,  flags fly forever. 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

I don't think it was that big of a deal because I think every team does something these days and has for some time.

"Technology" banned but sign stealing otherwise is okay and actually encouraged?  That's stupid.  Toronto stole signs for years using sophisticated cameras from a hotel room (there was a hotel inside the park with rooms facing the outfield) at their old park.  Every team in the AL East changed up signs like every inning because everyone knew they were doing it.  No one got on them for using technology.  And cameras are technology too.

Technology isn't going away.  Use it to hide your signs.  Don't ban it.

And yes I'm a Sox fan but I defended Houston before the Sox video room thing came out.

Probably.  Or they would have used Toronto's technology of cameras.  I'd guess a lot of teams still use cameras one way of the other.  Hell, a good quality cell phone (or slightly "enhanced" mock-up one) being used by a "fan" in the outfield while apparently just texting friends during a game could be used now.  You cannot stop the march of technology.  Use it to hide stuff and get off the high horse.  The technology genie is out of the bottle and will never be put back in.

 

Yep.  Lead to one of their worst years ever, haha.

I concur.  Yes both Houston and Boston broke rules and have to be punished but the rules are silly in this day and age because sign stealing has always been condoned and encouraged in baseball.  Saying one method of sign stealing is bad and another is good makes no sense.  It's like saying it's good to hand in a hand written book report but bad to hand in a word processor / printed out one.  Makes zero sense to me.  Like the rules committee is living back in the 18th century.

Again you CAN use technology to hide your signs just as well as steal them.  That's the "cure".  Not pretending you don't live in the 21st century.

 

baseball players have tried stealing signs for a very long time. it's why the pitcher/catcher change signs when there is a runner on 2nd base. this goes back decades and baseball has done nothing to prevent this.

they were explaining this one night on MLB network. the cameras that home teams use in the one video room has a camera that is always pointing close on home plate and the catcher. that would make it easy to see what signs the catcher is using and use that to steal the signs. if this video room can be abused live during game time, then just make this video room unavailable during the game. then players wouldn't be able to abuse this technology to steal signs live during the game. it wouldn't stop teams from using video replay to make them better players.

 

 

 

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I prefer the old way of handling sign stealing..ask Drysdale or Gibson what they would have done if someone was stealing their signs?  A couple guys getting hit in the ribs and/or hand and problem solved no more sign stealing.

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1 hour ago, Slatykamora said:

It's a big deal for the game, but it's more a sign of baseball as a sport being behind the times, while the world evolves around them. 

So in an X's and O's sense. Sign stealing is worse, It's also a baseball only problem, that it could address. Where the steroids problem was less in a X's and O's sense but had a more morally wrong sense. Where everyone in any competitive sport agrees its bad.

I take it you’re not a football fan, if you believe sign-stealing is only a “baseball problem.”

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17 minutes ago, murraygd13 said:

I prefer the old way of handling sign stealing..ask Drysdale or Gibson what they would have done if someone was stealing their signs?  A couple guys getting hit in the ribs and/or hand and problem solved no more sign stealing.

 

u gonna hit the camera man in center field in the ribs?

 

Edited by jfazz23
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57 minutes ago, WahooManiac said:

Im not getting into who deserves what.  The topic is advantage,  and you just cited the smallest of samples.  Read the articles.  While there seems to be some gains,  mostly this all looks like a bunch of noise.  

Tarnished or not,  flags fly forever. 

 

 

As do asterisks.

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1 hour ago, SpecialFNK said:

 

it would[] stop teams from using video replay to make them better players.

 

 

 

I find this extremely unlikely.

Edited by BMcP

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33 minutes ago, jfazz23 said:

 

u gonna hit the camera man in center field in the ribs?

 

You don't think the first time Springer or Bregman got one in the ribs, they wouldn't tell the camera man to stop?  

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32 minutes ago, BMcP said:

I take it you’re not a football fan, if you believe sign-stealing is only a “baseball problem.”

That's like saying "You must not believe theft is a bad thing" when I note that you shouldn't leave your car unlocked.

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1 hour ago, jfazz23 said:

 

u gonna hit the camera man in center field in the ribs?

 

No you hit the batter and let him carry word back into the dugout after the catcher explains why.

 

On MLB.TV they showed a segment where Glasnow was pitching to the Astros in the postseason. Glasnow was tipping his pitches but you could tell the hitters knew what was coming. It was amazing. Batters didn't flinch on the breaking ball and slaughtered his fastball.

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1 hour ago, Slatykamora said:

That's like saying "You must not believe theft is a bad thing" when I note that you shouldn't leave your car unlocked.

I am not following the analogy: both sports have, as of this past year, involved unfairly stealing signs via tech use.  Can you explain further, Slaty?

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2 hours ago, murraygd13 said:

I prefer the old way of handling sign stealing..ask Drysdale or Gibson what they would have done if someone was stealing their signs?  A couple guys getting hit in the ribs and/or hand and problem solved no more sign stealing.

Agreed. You think someone is stealing your signs ? Signal for a changeup and throw a fastball to the ribs. Problem solved. They won't be stealing your signs anymore.

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2 hours ago, murraygd13 said:

I prefer the old way of handling sign stealing..ask Drysdale or Gibson what they would have done if someone was stealing their signs?  A couple guys getting hit in the ribs and/or hand and problem solved no more sign stealing.

The old way WAS "cheating" with technology too.  The Bobby Thompson era 1951 Giants did it and it goes back as far as the late 1800's.

Quote

Check this article out for not just the Giants' techno sign stealing but also the 1898 Phillies (an underground wire with electrical signals was used from the centerfield clubhouse to the first base coach) and 1948 Indians (bullpen telescope and grounds crew guy crossing and uncrossing his legs, hah) as well.

But the 1951 Giants take the cake for their elaborate scheme which even incorporated the 1898 Phil's underground wire part into a more complex system.

Interestingly the stats don't necessary show knowing the signs actually helped them that much.  Some ways it did and some ways it didn't.  It definitely helped Bobby Thompson though.

Quote

... "The first surprise was the team batting average. “On the morning of July 20, the Giants were batting .266 at home and .252 on the road. For the rest of the season, New York hit .256 in the Polo Grounds and .269 away. So much for the advantage of knowing what pitch was coming.”

Interestingly, the one Giant whose batting markedly improved after the cheating began was Bobby Thomson himself; he batted .241 before the scheme began and .346 after." ...

Anyway the end result is no one remembers or cares that the 1951 Giants "cheated" and they will forget the Astros' stuff down the road in a decade or two as well as technology is finally accepted into the game of baseball as it is in every other major sport.

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4 minutes ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

The old way WAS "cheating" with technology too.  The Bobby Thompson era 1951 Giants did it and it goes back as far as the late 1800's.

Check this article out for not just the Giants' techno sign stealing but also the 1898 Phillies (an underground wire with electrical signals was used from the centerfield clubhouse to the first base coach) and 1948 Indians (bullpen telescope and grounds crew guy crossing and uncrossing his legs, hah) as well.

But the 1951 Giants take the cake for their elaborate scheme which even incorporated the 1898 Phil's underground wire part into a more complex system.

Interestingly the stats don't necessary show knowing the signs actually helped them that much.  Some ways it did and some ways it didn't.  It definitely helped Bobby Thompson though.

Anyway the end result is no one remembers or cares that the 1951 Giants "cheated" and they will forget the Astros' stuff down the road in a decade or two as well as technology is finally accepted into the game of baseball as it is in every other major sport.

im only going to read that article for the ole timey baseball nicknames.  i hope i am not disappointed

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5 hours ago, Slatykamora said:

It's a big deal for the game, but it's more a sign of baseball as a sport being behind the times, while the world evolves around them. 

So in an X's and O's sense. Sign stealing is worse, It's also a baseball only problem, that it could address. Where the steroids problem was less in a X's and O's sense but had a more morally wrong sense. Where everyone in any competitive sport agrees its bad.

Not sure I fully understand this... Are you claiming baseball is behind times because they use hand signals?

I hate to break it to you, but the Patriots spygate was about filming defensive hand signals.

Hand signals are pretty wide spread throughout sports.

If I'm reading this right and that's what you're claiming that's a pretty bad take that's not even remotely true.

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Love the punishment. Great for baseball for getting this right. NFL should take note, NBA as well with their coverup of Donaghy.

Life long die hard Sox fan here and if the 2018 Sox did this in the postseason they should be stripped of their title.

Alex Cora is likely suspended 1-2 years (or more?), but John Henry has no balls so I'm not sure if he gets fired or not. But if he did set up a similar system I want him fired from the team and any acknowledgement of him as manager and his success removed. The team accolades from that year removed from the stadium as well.

This scheme is so absurd and goes so far over the top, the punishments need to match. As a fan, I feel defrauded. 

If Cora was the mastermind as reported, and then set up another scheme in Boston, then a lifetime ban is in order. This is far worse than what Pete Rose did as a manager.

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7 hours ago, meh2 said:

Pure speculation on my part but I’d expect Boston ownership to follow Houston’s lead here and fire Cora.

Don't hold your breath. John Henry has no balls. He'll wait for public outcry to ask him to then follow suit.

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3 hours ago, jfazz23 said:

 

u gonna hit the camera man in center field in the ribs?

 

Trevor Bauer can!

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Anyone else think it's crazy that the players are receiving zero punishment for the player designed scheme? 

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11 hours ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

The old way WAS "cheating" with technology too.  The Bobby Thompson era 1951 Giants did it and it goes back as far as the late 1800's.

Check this article out for not just the Giants' techno sign stealing but also the 1898 Phillies (an underground wire with electrical signals was used from the centerfield clubhouse to the first base coach) and 1948 Indians (bullpen telescope and grounds crew guy crossing and uncrossing his legs, hah) as well.

But the 1951 Giants take the cake for their elaborate scheme which even incorporated the 1898 Phil's underground wire part into a more complex system.

Interestingly the stats don't necessary show knowing the signs actually helped them that much.  Some ways it did and some ways it didn't.  It definitely helped Bobby Thompson though.

Anyway the end result is no one remembers or cares that the 1951 Giants "cheated" and they will forget the Astros' stuff down the road in a decade or two as well as technology is finally accepted into the game of baseball as it is in every other major sport.

So in your eyes in years to come you believe cheating will be accepted? Play ball . 
 

Today’s cheating is so much more advanced. So your saying a guy sitting in centerfield 468 feet away in 1951 with binoculars while another guy inthe dugout with another set of binoculars compares to what is happening today with all this modern technology? 

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9 hours ago, StevieStats said:

Don't hold your breath. John Henry has no balls. He'll wait for public outcry to ask him to then follow suit.

John Henry has plenty of balls.  Baseballs.  Soccer balls (owns Liverpool team).  But seriously he does make a lot of hard decisions.  He just can't do anything until MLB puts out their investigation findings.  Unless that is Cora resigns first or admits directly to Henry whether has done.  Until then Henry's hands are really tied.

And yeah Cora will be gone.  The Boston sports stations are already speculating on who will replace him.  With roughly a month before spring training.

(1) Talking heads speculation so far is the current bench coach but he was hired by Cora and was probably involved.  (2) Jason Varitek who has remained in the organization with theultimate goal of one day being a GM.  And he is the cold, analytical type that would work good at that level.  But a manager has to be a people person and motivate etc.  Don;t see managing as a good fit for him.  (3) One sportscaster thought they should pull out their checkbooks and try and entice Bruce Botchy to come out of retirement on a one year mega deal.  (4)  Tony LaRussa -- originally hired by Dave Dombowski as his sidekick advisor -- is still under contract for "personal services" for one more year with the Sox.  Upgrade his pay big time and put him in as manager for that one year.

All of this is to say that Boston sports talking heads and fans have already moved on to who is the next manager and hire him quickly because pitchers and catchers reporting starts in roughly a month.

9 hours ago, StevieStats said:

Anyone else think it's crazy that the players are receiving zero punishment for the player designed scheme? 

Not me.  They are employees and not the powers that be.  The people in power are responsible whether they initiated this or just knowingly condoned it. 

Also society as a whole views people who don't go along with their peers as the bad guys no matter what their peers are doing.  And someone refusing to take part or telling others ("whistle blower") about this would take more guts than most people have because it would basically destroy their career in baseball.  A "rat fink" is worse than the people doing something illegal to probably the majority of people, alas.  (Never understood this attitude but it seems prevalent in everything in modern society and we are the losers for it).  So a player with a conscience would be hated by his fellow players for not being a good teammate and black balled secretly by organizations as a trouble maker if he stood up to something like this.

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I feel like a side story this season will be the Mets as Carlos Beltran was named as a player participant (and possible strategist?) in the report. It's already established he won't be punished, but I'll bet there's some extra eyes and ears on that team.

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33 minutes ago, shakestreet said:

So in your eyes in years to come you believe cheating will be accepted? Play ball . 
Today’s cheating is so much more advanced. So your saying a guy sitting in centerfield 468 feet away in 1951 with binoculars while another guy inthe dugout with another set of binoculars compares to what is happening today with all this modern technology? 

I see you didn't read the article.  An electrical wire purposely dug into and run under the field isn't "just" binoculars.  Or high powered telescopes.  Both of which are the same as reading the signs by blowing up video quite frankly.

And yes it is absolutely the same.  The goal is to steal signs in baseball.  Whatever the cutting edge of technology is in it's day amounts to the same thing.  Enhanced help in the official blessed pursuit of stealing signs.  Stealing signs has always been legit in baseball since the beginning.

Again for the hundredth time if you want to stop this fight fire with fire and use technology to encode signals to the pitcher.  There are dozens of ways to do this.  If MLB is clueless hold a nationwide contest for inventors to develop the best high tech way to do this.

The technology already exists.  Use the damn stuff.  Put a tactile and different shapes easy to feel keypad transmitter inside a hard or semi-harden "sleeve" on the front of the chest protector about the same size as a hand warmer in football say.  Then let the catcher put his hand in it and tap the right signal noise to a pitcher's earbuds.  Birds chirping = slider.  Drum roll = fastball.  Bagpipes annoying you = change.

Or call plays from the dugout given by a "coach catcher" who watches the game via a camera view from behind the real catcher.  People seem to forget that football used to have QB's call all the plays in the old days.  They took away the play calling from them and gave it to coaches.  QBs can still audible at the line and catchers could still throw down hand signs to override or confuse the opposition. 

Just two of about a dozen ideas that popped into my head right now while just typing this reply.  And inventors and engineers could obviously come up with much better ones that actually worked.  Come on baseball.  Quit playing defense and go on offense.

Edited by The Big Bat Theory
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MLB suspended Hinch and Luhnow. Cora is named to be much more involved, should the Red Sox simply fire him now? doing it now could allow them time to find a new manager before spring training.

with as much as Cora was involved, I wouldn't be surprised if he was banned for life.

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