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2020 MLB Sign Stealing Discussion

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59 minutes ago, SpecialFNK said:

MLB suspended Hinch and Luhnow. Cora is named to be much more involved, should the Red Sox simply fire him now? doing it now could allow them time to find a new manager before spring training.

with as much as Cora was involved, I wouldn't be surprised if he was banned for life.

Yeah.  Cora is done-zo.

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57 minutes ago, SpecialFNK said:

MLB suspended Hinch and Luhnow. Cora is named to be much more involved, should the Red Sox simply fire him now? doing it now could allow them time to find a new manager before spring training.

with as much as Cora was involved, I wouldn't be surprised if he was banned for life.

Disregarding the warning AND taking it to another club definitely seems like crossing a big fat line. I think the actual length of the suspension is probably academic as he'll be unhireable after this anyway.

 

I am interested to see how the two teams do on the road this year. The boos will rain down for sure but I wonder how players will respond. Beanings etc? I saw Aaron Judge took the time to delete a congratulatory post on social media for the Astros WS win. 

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Can anyone specify the players - other than the physically and morally diminutive Altuve - who chipped in?

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4 minutes ago, BMcP said:

Can anyone specify the players - other than the physically and morally diminutive Altuve - who chipped in?

 

Based on the Farquhar clip I think you can assume Gattis was in on it. 

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By "in on it" do we mean players that were aware? Seems like at least the entire offense knew and Fiers, a pitcher, was the whistleblower. Conservatively, I would say all offensive players were aware of it.

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Impossible to prove what players were or werent involved except he said she said, so no way to really punish players individually barring a player literally ratting out every player by name, you can assume who was involved etc but assumptions wont hold up during an appeal without legit evidence on each said player

Edited by kmoore1521
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Cora should get ahead of this and just resign right now. Red Sox probably forced to fire him if the suspension is more than a year anyway.

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36 minutes ago, kmoore1521 said:

Impossible to prove what players were or werent involved except he said she said, so no way to really punish players individually barring a player literally ratting out every player by name, you can assume who was involved etc but assumptions wont hold up during an appeal without legit evidence on each said player

Easy to prove, the broadcast picks up the banging. Just review who used it.

Bregman for instance was a big benefactor.

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34 minutes ago, Sidearmer said:

Cora should get ahead of this and just resign right now. Red Sox probably forced to fire him if the suspension is more than a year anyway.

Why would he sacrifice the free money he gets from getting fired? He's not stepping down.

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1 minute ago, StevieStats said:

Easy to prove, the broadcast picks up the banging. Just review who used it.

Bregman for instance was a big benefactor.

 

I saw an article where some guys didnt even use it because they found it distracting, id say its hard to legally punish players if thats how your identifying, just doesnt seem like a strong base to stand on, players can say they didnt use it, didnt hear it etc etc and all people can say back is "well look at your home stats" or something which again i just dont see as a strong base for the argument to uphold punishments for specific players

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26 minutes ago, kmoore1521 said:

 

I saw an article where some guys didnt even use it because they found it distracting, id say its hard to legally punish players if thats how your identifying, just doesnt seem like a strong base to stand on, players can say they didnt use it, didnt hear it etc etc and all people can say back is "well look at your home stats" or something which again i just dont see as a strong base for the argument to uphold punishments for specific players

So documented video evidence of their scheme in use as they are hitting isn't a strong base? Lmao how can you be remotely serious??

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On 11/15/2019 at 9:30 AM, FitzMagic said:

Sign stealing is okay with me. I was even fine with PEDs. It's just a game. If people need to cheat to feel better so be it. They didn't steal a poor kid's lunch money.

 

It's one thing if a runner on base is relaying the signs in that is a part of the game.  But to set up cameras around the stadium and a system to relay to the hitters when no one is even on base that's going too far.

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3 minutes ago, FouLLine said:

 

It's one thing if a runner on base is relaying the signs in that is a part of the game.  But to set up cameras around the stadium and a system to relay to the hitters when no one is even on base that's going too far.

Best analogy i can come up with is window peeping. Someone looks up and see someone in their window, that's one thing, but setting up a camera to peer into and enhance what you are seeing that's invasive and illegal.

The Astros are full blown sign perverts.

Edited by StevieStats
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On 11/17/2019 at 9:45 AM, BMcP said:

How Hobbesian.  The point is, it’s not “just a game.”  As Fiers and many others have noted, the Astros’ cheating was injurious to the livelihoods of pitchers trying to make it in the bigs.  These people have families depending on them to earn a sustainable income.  Dismissing that as if it’s meaningless simply because it involves playing a game is willful blindness.

 

Bingo... Wins and stats get guys paid.  In an era where owners are taking advantage of the plethora of young talent out there veterans can't be getting giving up any more bargaining leverage especially when they won't be seeing big long term and secure contracts anymore.

 

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1 minute ago, StevieStats said:

Best analogy i can come up with is window peeping. Someone looks up and see someone in their window, that's one thing, but setting up a camera to peer into and enhance what you are seeing that's invasive and illegal.

The Astros are full blown sign perverts.

 

Haha well said my dude.

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9 minutes ago, StevieStats said:

So documented video evidence of their scheme in use as they are hitting isn't a strong base? Lmao how can you be remotely serious??

 

the process of getting something like that done and proven especially going through the MLBPA is not cut and dry, theres a reason MLB didnt go after players individually it isnt just "oh hey heres video of banging when this guy is hitting = guilty", its not that simple or the MLB wouldve pursued it imo

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Yes, too difficult to nail individual players. Are some players more guilty than others? It'd have to be an all or nothing deal, which isn't sensible because it would be very difficult to prove on an at-bat basis. That said, I do think it's reasonable to adjust projections/expectations of Astros players based on this scandal.

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11 minutes ago, StevieStats said:

Best analogy i can come up with is window peeping. Someone looks up and see someone in their window, that's one thing, but setting up a camera to peer into and enhance what you are seeing that's invasive and illegal.

The Astros are full blown sign perverts.

Bathroom cameras ...

I don’t believe any players will be found guilty. You have to assume every Astro & (might as well say) Red Sox player knew about this. 

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Some of these Astros players are gonna pay the price next year. IF I were a pitcher from their division that got creamed by them in HOU, you best believe a FB to the ribs is in order...and you know Bregman and others are gonna be red-assed about it too, so some fights are certain to come up too.

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1 hour ago, StevieStats said:

Why would he sacrifice the free money he gets from getting fired? He's not stepping down.

 

I'm sure he can work something out with Red Sox to effectively resign while not sacrificing money. I would think he and Hinch might be on the hook for some of their guaranteed contracts anyway due to breaching their contract.

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7 minutes ago, ST. STEVEN said:

Some of these Astros players are gonna pay the price next year. IF I were a pitcher from their division that got creamed by them in HOU, you best believe a FB to the ribs is in order...and you know Bregman and others are gonna be red-assed about it too, so some fights are certain to come up too.

 

There will surely be fights. Any time a player is struggling this is all they will hear about. Pitchers will throw at them. Opposing games will be filled with fans banging garbage cans. Its going to be a huge distraction for them all year.

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1 hour ago, FantasyGeek2018 said:

All players involved banned for life. BlackSox.

The real problem with this is how deep this can go. 

First it was Houston, then it was the Red Sox. Who next? What do we do when we find out players on another 8-10 or more teams were complicit? Where is the line for punishment? What if it only happened once, what if it was a series, half a season, only playoffs, etc. Just across the board lifetime bans for anyone been involved in such a thing? 

You set the precedent with Houston on that and possibly end up with hundreds of major leaguers out of work, some of which would be the best in the game. 

I don't think lifetime bans are appropriate, not for the players. I mean, Fiers was on the team, knew it was happening, even if he didn't bang on the drum - he was still complicit. 

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Agreed re: lifetime bans for players.  I think the players’ fates will be litigated by opposing pitchers and fan bases.

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20 hours ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

I don't think it was that big of a deal because I think every team does something these days and has for some time.

"Technology" banned but sign stealing otherwise is okay and actually encouraged?  That's stupid.  Toronto stole signs for years using sophisticated cameras from a hotel room (there was a hotel inside the park with rooms facing the outfield) at their old park.  Every team in the AL East changed up signs like every inning because everyone knew they were doing it.  No one got on them for using technology.  And cameras are technology too.

Technology isn't going away.  Use it to hide your signs.  Don't ban it.

And yes I'm a Sox fan but I defended Houston before the Sox video room thing came out.

Probably.  Or they would have used Toronto's technology of cameras.  I'd guess a lot of teams still use cameras one way of the other.  Hell, a good quality cell phone (or slightly "enhanced" mock-up one) being used by a "fan" in the outfield while apparently just texting friends during a game could be used now.  You cannot stop the march of technology.  Use it to hide stuff and get off the high horse.  The technology genie is out of the bottle and will never be put back in.

 

Yep.  Lead to one of their worst years ever, haha.

I concur.  Yes both Houston and Boston broke rules and have to be punished but the rules are silly in this day and age because sign stealing has always been condoned and encouraged in baseball.  Saying one method of sign stealing is bad and another is good makes no sense.  It's like saying it's good to hand in a hand written book report but bad to hand in a word processor / printed out one.  Makes zero sense to me.  Like the rules committee is living back in the 18th century.

Again you CAN use technology to hide your signs just as well as steal them.  That's the "cure".  Not pretending you don't live in the 21st century.

This is comedy gold😂 The best thing about this whole situation is watching Astros and RedSox fans squirm. Ooooo happyyy dayssss

Edited by BxBOMBERs28
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