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2020 MLB Sign Stealing Discussion

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1 hour ago, Sidearmer said:

I'm sure he can work something out with Red Sox to effectively resign while not sacrificing money. I would think he and Hinch might be on the hook for some of their guaranteed contracts anyway due to breaching their contract.

I agree.  Cora does at least care for the players on his soon to be former team so to hold on until he got fired and screw the Red Sox with a month to go until spring training doesn't benefit him in the least.  They need a new manager asap.  So I would be surprised if John Henry and him weren't discussing a termination deal right now or already have.

51 minutes ago, sngehl01 said:

The real problem with this is how deep this can go. 

First it was Houston, then it was the Red Sox. Who next? What do we do when we find out players on another 8-10 or more teams were complicit? ...

You can almost guarantee that at LEAST that many teams are stealing signs with some sort of technology involved.  Just because they aren't caught doesn't mean they aren't doing it.  It just means those teams are doing it successfully so far. 

Look at the articles on the 1951 Giants.  It wasn't found out they "cheated" until roughly 50 years after the fact when some aged players from the team made what you might call baseball's version of (approaching) deathbed confessions about same.

Again, block the sign stealing tech by using signal calling tech.  Don't do the equivalent of FBI warnings about breaking down your door if you record a game on your VHS tape back in the day.  Or the record industry trying to block digital recording for years.  Join the 21st century and secure your signal calling with tech.  MLB, quit whining about technology and use it for baseball's benefit.  Because it will never ever go back to cave man days with hand signals and grunts.  Grow up, MLB.

Edited by The Big Bat Theory
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7 minutes ago, BxBOMBERs28 said:

This is comedy gold😂 The best thing about this whole situation is watching Astros and RedSox fans squirm. Ooooo happyyy dayssss

Enjoy while you can.  Your team is next.

And I'm not squirming.  The Red Sox weren't going to compete for it all this year anyway.  It's sad that Cora went down this road thus destroying a managerial career that could have been outstanding.  That's the only downer I feel about the situation.  Nothing else negative.

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Giving up so soon?  Why?

I have to believe MLB is currently considering some tech-related adjustments to how signs are relayed to the pitcher.  I’d expect some development in 2021.

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15 hours ago, StevieStats said:

Anyone else think it's crazy that the players are receiving zero punishment for the player designed scheme? 

not really

 

the union is VERY strong and its tough to pinpoint who did it and who did it willingly.

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Eff it, just give the pitcher an earpiece where the catcher just says "yo fastball inside here" 😂🤷‍♂️

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1 hour ago, BxBOMBERs28 said:

This is comedy gold😂 The best thing about this whole situation is watching Astros and RedSox fans squirm. Ooooo happyyy dayssss

Image result for jack nicholson gif

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So this is why they were the hardest team in the majors to strikeout and had the highest OPS. This is beyond stealing signs this is flat out cheating. It’s actually worse than HGH

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7 minutes ago, Cdub2k said:

So this is why they were the hardest team in the majors to strikeout and had the highest OPS.

 

What's so tragic about this -- not like Australian fires tragic or anything, but tragic relative to baseball's comparatively low stakes -- is that there's a certain amount of that improvement that's a result of great draft selections, savvy international market scouting, and effective player development by an organization that really did do a lot of things well during this time.  But then they also had to cheat on top of that.  So now we have as fans no choice but to look at all of the good they did and say it's all called into question by the cheating.  Stealing signs didn't make Jose Altuve a great hitter -- he's already a great hitter -- but it may have made him one of the best.  Same goes for the rest of the team.  Many of them would have had great seasons and gone on to great careers anyway, but they had to get greedy about it.

It's like A-Rod with the steroids.  He was already one of the best, maybe the best of a generation, but it wasn't enough.  Hopefully MLB's forceful response gets teams thinking more about the downside of unmitigated greed.

Hold on a second, I think I hear Ron Howard coming down the hall to narrate a response to that.

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Not sure if this is a dumb question , but why don't MLB teams just use technology to relay signs so there is no threat of them being stolen.

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4 minutes ago, dmb3684 said:

Not sure if this is a dumb question , but why don't MLB teams just use technology to relay signs so there is no threat of them being stolen.

what about something that vibrates...

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58 minutes ago, dmb3684 said:

Not sure if this is a dumb question , but why don't MLB teams just use technology to relay signs so there is no threat of them being stolen.

Couldn’t that be hacked ... the pitcher gets a beep to throw a fastball then the batter gets a signal a fastball is coming. 

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Here's a take from a vet i saw online today:

"From Tim Flannery .... They are fining  teams who try to steal signs ...hahahaha..got out just in time .

Ok...I feel a need to speak out, normal is changing, and today's norm is not the norm.
For 26 years I was in the big leagues , 10 as a player, 16 as a 3rd base coach , 20 if you count the other years learning the craft in the minor leagues , from Boise , to Wichita. The seriousness of the writer, the expertise from the front office man, the commissioner, to those who have never lived it. Here it is...I have 25 World Series games under my belt, 7 elimination games, and a 7th game of a World Series. 5 World Series ,3 World Championships I know it don't mean much to those in front of a computer, with the answers and all the rules. So I'm gonna make a long story short. I had a video camera on every 3rd base coach every single night, I spent hours logging tapes trying to steal your signs and finding a way to beat you. You as well did it, in New York I knew the Valentine Mets did it, I knew the Cubs did it, I knew the Dbacks, St. Louis did it, I caught them, that's when the fun begins , you f--- em up by changing signs, you tell the boys " if I put a hit and run on first pitch don't do anything, they will pitch out and now they don't  have the signs, and you're in a hitters count" the list goes on and on.....if you aren't smart enough ( and believe me this isn't rocket science, it's being somewhat aware) it's your fault, now the game is turned into no breaking up double plays , don't slide hard at home, don't block the plate.if you are not creative enough to derail them, you've stopped thinking. As far as some of the greatest baseball writers who I love, read and listen to, and hang with. You are so off on the sign stuff. It's a high stakes poker game, big money especially as coaches . If you get caught , if your signs are stolen and you don't know in the moment they are close, they are on you...your not thinking, and now because of that the commissioner comes in not understanding, the writers write stealing signs is wrong. We had an advance scout that could watch your 3rd base coach for 3 days and be real close to getting his signs. He would send his report and I would watch you, or have a camera on you, if you haven't played , you don't understand how important this part of the game should be. You don't understand I would not only try and steal your hit and run sign, I would put our hit and run on that my guys knew, then in the same sequence put the other teams hit and run on so when they look at their cameras that we all used to steal the signs they would see and in their minds " **** they have the same sign for hit and run we have". It's propaganda war fare, its trying to beat you......so why you claim people aren't watching baseball because it takes to long, I say your taking the smarts out of it. ...I tried every night for 16 years to steal your signs either writing every thing you did down, or by looking at tapes because I had a camera on you, just like you had on me. Please leave the game alone, and every writer who wrote articles on this..be in church Sunday,because I know for a fact everyone of you looked at body language , vibe, and found a way to snake another writer to get the feature, get the win., leaving it  with no creativity, no thinking, and the dumbing down of the greatest game ever......not that I know anything about it....Peace Tim Flannery."

 

This isn't the scandal people are making it to be.  If you think your team isn't doing this, your very naive.  To act like sign stealing makes hitters into studs is ridiculous.  It gives a slight edge,  at best.  

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I don’t believe Mr....Flannery?  understands that using tech to steal signs was explicitly banned.

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35 minutes ago, shakestreet said:

Couldn’t that be hacked ... the pitcher gets a beep to throw a fastball then the batter gets a signal a fastball is coming. 

Sure, but it gives you added complexity to make it harder to steal your signs.

Does it really harm the game to have the catchers mask with a communication device embedded?

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3 hours ago, kmoore1521 said:

Eff it, just give the pitcher an earpiece where the catcher just says "yo fastball inside here" 😂🤷‍♂️

lol, and earplugs on the ump and batter. Right?

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On a sports talk show in Boston today they came down hard on Cora and want him out.  They weren't pulling any punches that way.

But at one point they also played an old audio tape from last year too.  Interesting post game press conference with Alex Cora after the Yankees swept the Red Sox the two games in London.  One of Cora's best personal friends and chief lieutenant apparently in the Houston 2017 stuff, Carlos Beltran, was hired for the 2019 season as a special assistant or whatever by the Yankees.  Cora appears here not to want to rat out his good personal friend but seems to suggest that not only does Beltran know what Cora is doing in Boston then but that Cora knows what Beltran is doing with the Yankees.  Keeps using the phrase "little details" like a code word and that his team needs to be "very careful" around NY.  At one point near the end he even mutters something about "devices."

Beltran has gotten a pass because he was a player and not a coach while at Houston but he was heavily involved there.  What he did with the Yankees last year as a special assistant now becomes a bit or an interesting mystery.  And a shadow will definitely be over him with the Mets now.

Tim Flannery above is right.  He knows all the teams are doing stuff in one form or another.  Only some get caught and some haven't been yet.

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11 minutes ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

He knows all the teams are doing stuff in one form or another. 

 

Let's be clear about "in one form or another" here.  I don't think anybody is advocating punishing teams that try to steal signs using "conventional" means.  If the implication is that all 30 MLB teams are cheating using some form of technology, then I'll take the under for sure.  Do you really think Baltimore was stealing signs so they could win 54 games instead of 51?  It's no accident that the teams that have been singled out won titles -- not only are they the biggest targets, but they also had the most to gain by cheating.  The cost/benefit just wasn't there for a majority of teams that are much farther than a few stolen signs from a title run.

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11 minutes ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

On a sports talk show in Boston today they came down hard on Cora and want him out.  They weren't pulling any punches that way.

But at one point they also played an old audio tape from last year too.  Interesting post game press conference with Alex Cora after the Yankees swept the Red Sox the two games in London.  One of Cora's best personal friends and chief lieutenant apparently in the Houston 2017 stuff, Carlos Beltran, was hired for the 2019 season as a special assistant or whatever by the Yankees.  Cora appears here not to want to rat out his good personal friend but seems to suggest that not only does Beltran know what Cora is doing in Boston then but that Cora knows what Beltran is doing with the Yankees.  Keeps using the phrase "little details" like a code word and that his team needs to be "very careful" around NY.  At one point near the end he even mutters something about "devices."

Beltran has gotten a pass because he was a player and not a coach while at Houston but he was heavily involved there.  What he did with the Yankees last year as a special assistant now becomes a bit or an interesting mystery.  And a shadow will definitely be over him with the Mets now.

Tim Flannery above is right.  He knows all the teams are doing stuff in one form or another.  Only some get caught and some haven't been yet.

 

Beltran's punishment is he has to manage the Mets

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1 hour ago, shakestreet said:

Couldn’t that be hacked ... the pitcher gets a beep to throw a fastball then the batter gets a signal a fastball is coming. 

 

Anything *can* be hacked, but assuming standard security practices are applied and MLB does a passable job of monitoring these systems, they can easily make it a lot more secure than the status quo.

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I think Beltran is in real danger. This has become so toxic so quickly that the Mets will be answering questions every day that he is there. Plus he was named in the report as a mastermind of the Astros scheme. He may not even manage a game there.

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2 hours ago, shakestreet said:

Couldn’t that be hacked ... the pitcher gets a beep to throw a fastball then the batter gets a signal a fastball is coming. 

 

Well you can say that about NFL headsets as well. I'm sure anti hacking measures can be put in place. 

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I'm not thumbing through 9 pages, but with games you have to protect the integrity of the game.  Google Ultimate bet.  They were a leader of an industry.  

I have a masters in public policy which was rich in game theory.  Once integrity is compromised, the threat of the game deteriorating or becoming no more exists until the perceived threat is taken care of. 

You cant have cheating in a game.  Astros are fortunate the punishment wasn't worse.  Maybe Manfred uses Goodells wheel of justice 

Edited by kidtwentytwo
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4 hours ago, WahooManiac said:

Here's a take from a vet i saw online today:

"From Tim Flannery .... They are fining  teams who try to steal signs ...hahahaha..got out just in time .

Ok...I feel a need to speak out, normal is changing, and today's norm is not the norm.
For 26 years I was in the big leagues , 10 as a player, 16 as a 3rd base coach , 20 if you count the other years learning the craft in the minor leagues , from Boise , to Wichita. The seriousness of the writer, the expertise from the front office man, the commissioner, to those who have never lived it. Here it is...I have 25 World Series games under my belt, 7 elimination games, and a 7th game of a World Series. 5 World Series ,3 World Championships I know it don't mean much to those in front of a computer, with the answers and all the rules. So I'm gonna make a long story short. I had a video camera on every 3rd base coach every single night, I spent hours logging tapes trying to steal your signs and finding a way to beat you. You as well did it, in New York I knew the Valentine Mets did it, I knew the Cubs did it, I knew the Dbacks, St. Louis did it, I caught them, that's when the fun begins , you f--- em up by changing signs, you tell the boys " if I put a hit and run on first pitch don't do anything, they will pitch out and now they don't  have the signs, and you're in a hitters count" the list goes on and on.....if you aren't smart enough ( and believe me this isn't rocket science, it's being somewhat aware) it's your fault, now the game is turned into no breaking up double plays , don't slide hard at home, don't block the plate.if you are not creative enough to derail them, you've stopped thinking. As far as some of the greatest baseball writers who I love, read and listen to, and hang with. You are so off on the sign stuff. It's a high stakes poker game, big money especially as coaches . If you get caught , if your signs are stolen and you don't know in the moment they are close, they are on you...your not thinking, and now because of that the commissioner comes in not understanding, the writers write stealing signs is wrong. We had an advance scout that could watch your 3rd base coach for 3 days and be real close to getting his signs. He would send his report and I would watch you, or have a camera on you, if you haven't played , you don't understand how important this part of the game should be. You don't understand I would not only try and steal your hit and run sign, I would put our hit and run on that my guys knew, then in the same sequence put the other teams hit and run on so when they look at their cameras that we all used to steal the signs they would see and in their minds " **** they have the same sign for hit and run we have". It's propaganda war fare, its trying to beat you......so why you claim people aren't watching baseball because it takes to long, I say your taking the smarts out of it. ...I tried every night for 16 years to steal your signs either writing every thing you did down, or by looking at tapes because I had a camera on you, just like you had on me. Please leave the game alone, and every writer who wrote articles on this..be in church Sunday,because I know for a fact everyone of you looked at body language , vibe, and found a way to snake another writer to get the feature, get the win., leaving it  with no creativity, no thinking, and the dumbing down of the greatest game ever......not that I know anything about it....Peace Tim Flannery."

 

This isn't the scandal people are making it to be.  If you think your team isn't doing this, your very naive.  To act like sign stealing makes hitters into studs is ridiculous.  It gives a slight edge,  at best.  

What a tool, guy uses examples that have nothing to do with the astros nor severity of their scheme. No one is saying sign stealing isn't legal or shouldn't happen, it's the particular spying and real time rely. What an absolute tool.

I do agree with him on regulating out things like home plate collisions.

But Flannery comes off as a guy having a conversation in his own world about something else and doesn't have a clue about what the Astros did.

Edited by StevieStats
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