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Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion

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10 hours ago, hailtoyourvictor said:

 

To touch back on this, it's not just elective surgeries that have been cancelled. We are cancelling as many outpatient radiology exams as possible. Our women's imaging centers (mammograms, breast ultrasound) have  been completely shut down all month.

 

It's amazing to read a first hand account like this, yet still see people protesting because they can't go to the effing beach. 

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11 hours ago, hailtoyourvictor said:

 

To touch back on this, it's not just elective surgeries that have been cancelled. We are cancelling as many outpatient radiology exams as possible. Our women's imaging centers (mammograms, breast ultrasound) have  been completely shut down all month.

 

1 hour ago, 89Topps said:

 

It's amazing to read a first hand account like this, yet still see people protesting because they can't go to the effing beach. 

Maybe some are protesting for this reason. I know a guy who had stage 2 colon cancer. He’s had some concerns recently and wants to be seen. But it’s not emergency and therefore he can’t. He is angry and supports the protesters. 

As always, these things are extremely nuanced, yet everyone just wants to scream “JUST STAY HOME. DO WHAT YOURE TOLD. STOP BEING SELFISH!” With zero room for nuance. Not unexpected for an online forum I suppose, but frustrating nonetheless.

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1 hour ago, 89Topps said:

 

It's amazing to read a first hand account like this, yet still see people protesting because they can't go to the effing beach. 

I believe he said he was not getting hazard pay because they do not have enough covid19 patients which is good ( the less patients...he should get hazard pay). What does that have to do with Michigan protests? What do Michigan protests have to do with Florida beaches being reopened with enforced social distancing guidelines?

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Backdoor Slider said:

 

Maybe some are protesting for this reason. I know a guy who had stage 2 colon cancer. He’s had some concerns recently and wants to be seen. But it’s not emergency and therefore he can’t. He is angry and supports the protesters. 

As always, these things are extremely nuanced, yet everyone just wants to scream “JUST STAY HOME. DO WHAT YOURE TOLD. STOP BEING SELFISH!” With zero room for nuance. Not unexpected for an online forum I suppose, but frustrating nonetheless.

Re: nuance, it kind of reminds me of fiscally conservative people I have spoken to in the past who I've heard say, "people with legitimate disabilities should be the strongest critics of people who abuse social safety nets, they're diminishing your argument."  Likewise, people who are interested in reopening aspects of the economy because they plan on practicing responsible social distancing techniques and are in need of essential services or are in real financial dire straights should be the most critical of people who are a part of their protest but for purely selfish reasons and bandy crazy conspiracy theories.

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26 minutes ago, JE7HorseGod said:

Re: nuance, it kind of reminds me of fiscally conservative people I have spoken to in the past who I've heard say, "people with legitimate disabilities should be the strongest critics of people who abuse social safety nets, they're diminishing your argument."  Likewise, people who are interested in reopening aspects of the economy because they plan on practicing responsible social distancing techniques and are in need of essential services or are in real financial dire straights should be the most critical of people who are a part of their protest but for purely selfish reasons and bandy crazy conspiracy theories.

Whataboutism is fun. Hard for me to stay up on the rules as to whether it’s acceptable or not. Seems rules are always changing. That said, I think you agree that nuanced discussion is good. I think.

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Just now, Backdoor Slider said:

Whataboutism is fun. Hard for me to stay up on the rules as to whether it’s acceptable or not. Seems rules are always changing. That said, I think you agree that nuanced discussion is good. I think.

I do agree that nuanced discussion is important.

I'm really not trying to make this a "whatabout" issue, just trying to say that to me this seems like a similar nuance of note, albeit from another side of what we consider to be the typical "political spectrum."

That is to say, sometimes the best watchdog to ensure people are acting for the public good are folks who are making the same general argument, but for better reasons.

Sometimes, people don't listen to people who are genuinely disabled because free riders are with them shoulder to shoulder.  Sometimes, other people don't listen to people who plan to exercise caution and act responsibly but are genuinely concerned with their businesses because they're standing shoulder to shoulder with people who are bored watching Tiger King and want a haircut.  Just sayin.

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My girlfriend has a lump in her throat she's worried about and she can't get to see her doctor. Now, the chances of it being something serious are probably pretty small. But multiply issues like this across the country/world and some percentage of them will end up being serious and won't receive proper treatment.  This isn't to say we shouldn't be doing what we're doing now. If no effort was made to "flatten the curve" there's a negative outcome to that too. Just pointing out another example of , if you're  sole focus is just preventing lives lost to the virus, there's going to be fall out elsewhere. And the longer we stay in this state, the more painful that fall out is gonna be. And not just the obvious fallout of ruining people financially. It's a balancing act and there's no appealing answer. 

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Posted (edited)

News from Germany.

we reopened small businesses today. next week schools will continue for students to graduate (because they are older and should be able to follow distancing rules). after 2 weeks reevaluation of the Situation and if positive, reopen will continue. beaches and crowded places are closed and will be closed longer. personal opinion: you are flat out crazy to reopen beaches in your Situation. someone who did this here, political Career would be over immediatly.

 

for Sports (Soccer first, Bundesliga, only Soccer really matters for germans). talks ongoing. Looks like 9th may or a week later they will try (if the reevaluation in 2 weeks brings positive results). stands empty. Minimum People involved. Players tested often. the DFL is working out concepts. I know from Bayern munich they are testing their Players 3 times a week the past weeks. Training ground they expanded to Groups of seven today (strikers-midfield-defenders).

 

small steps. but there is hope for Soccer mid may!

Edited by cornerback
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11 minutes ago, fletch44 said:

My girlfriend has a lump in her throat she's worried about and she can't get to see her doctor. Now, the chances of it being something serious are probably pretty small. But multiply issues like this across the country/world and some percentage of them will end up being serious and won't receive proper treatment.  This isn't to say we shouldn't be doing what we're doing now. If no effort was made to "flatten the curve" there's a negative outcome to that too. Just pointing out another example of , if you're  sole focus is just preventing lives lost to the virus, there's going to be fall out elsewhere. And the longer we stay in this state, the more painful that fall out is gonna be. And not just the obvious fallout of ruining people financially. It's a balancing act and there's no appealing answer. 

Right. And she has every reason to be upset with a blanket “Stay home. Stay safe. Your selfish if you leave your house” mantra that everyone is screaming everywhere for the “likes,” with zero thought. There ARE some things to debate/discuss, but those discussions aren’t being allowed to be had (not here. On a larger scale).

Hope all is well with your girlfriend. 

 

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22 minutes ago, cornerback said:

News from Germany.

we reopened small businesses today. next week schools will continue for students to graduate (because they are older and should be able to follow distancing rules). after 2 weeks reevaluation of the Situation and if positive, reopen will continue. beaches and crowded places are closed and will be closed longer. personal opinion: you are flat out crazy to reopen beaches in your Situation. someone who did this here, political Career would be over immediatly.

 

for Sports (Soccer first, Bundesliga, only Soccer really matters for germans). talks ongoing. Looks like 9th may or a week later they will try (if the reevaluation in 2 weeks brings positive results). stands empty. Minimum People involved. Players tested often. the DFL is working out concepts. I know from Bayern munich they are testing their Players 3 times a week the past weeks. Training ground they expanded to Groups of seven today (strikers-midfield-defenders).

 

small steps. but there is hope for Soccer mid may!

Love this update! keep them coming! i can only hope the rest of Europe is shortly behind Germany in this moment and that the likes of Italy, France, Portugal, Spain and the rest can get their economies restarted in the near future.

Question for you - How do you feel about the German government taking heat from its peers through out Europe for not helping the other nations enough? Or atleast what the other nations perceive as enough? What i am getting at is there is talk that Germany, who is well ahead of everybody else in terms of testing and protocol are not providing other countries with instruction on how they accomplished such a feat? and it could be looked at as leaving their peers left out to dry. I personally am not in the loop as much as you would be considering your place of residence, which is why i am genuinely asking for your opinion on the matter. Could Germany be doing more to help other countries with their outbreaks?

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Hopefully the desire for a nuanced discussion includes a preference for data over anecdotes.  If so, let's keep in mind that these protesters are a very tiny sliver of the population, with polling consistently showing that Americans are about twice as concerned about easing restrictions too quickly as they are about not lifting them quickly enough.

That's not to say that we shouldn't take their legitimate concerns seriously, or that we should ignore unfortunate instances like people having non-emergency but still important surgeries put off or are delaying routine examinations and medical care -- a group that includes several family members of mine -- but when the protests are being led by a group so scammy that even fellow conservatives are attacking them, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that wanting to end stay-at-home orders is a minority view -- one that warrants a fair hearing, but ultimately, not reflective of a broad desire to risk a second wave of infections by easing restrictions too soon.

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7 minutes ago, tonycpsu said:

Hopefully the desire for a nuanced discussion includes a preference for data over anecdotes.  If so, let's keep in mind that these protesters are a very tiny sliver of the population, with polling consistently showingining that Americans are about twice as concerned about easing restrictions too quickly as they are about not lifting them quickly enough.

That's not to say that we shouldn't take their legitimate concerns seriously, or that we should ignore unfortunate instances like people having non-emergency but still important surgeries put off or are delaying routine examinations and medical care -- a group that includes several family members of mine -- but when the protests are being led by a group so scammy that even fellow conservatives are attacking them, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that wanting to end stay-at-home orders is a minority view -- one that warrants a fair hearing, but ultimately, not reflective of a broad desire to risk a second wave of infections by easing restrictions too soon.

Agree with much of this. But to me, the nuance is not having blanket “wanting to end stay-at-home orders” v. “don’t ease restrictions too quickly.” It’s not that black and white, and that’s my point.

How about, “keep stay at home order, but allow medical professionals to determine the severity on a case by case basis to decide if they should see patients or not.”

This is what I’m talking about. 

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I don't know about your state, but in PA, decisions on who to see medically are still in the hands of healthcare providers.  Those providers are tending to proceed with caution and many are stopping elective surgeries entirely, but Pittsburgh's largest (by far) hospital system is continuing to do them.

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50 minutes ago, cornerback said:

News from Germany.

we reopened small businesses today. next week schools will continue for students to graduate (because they are older and should be able to follow distancing rules). after 2 weeks reevaluation of the Situation and if positive, reopen will continue. beaches and crowded places are closed and will be closed longer. personal opinion: you are flat out crazy to reopen beaches in your Situation. someone who did this here, political Career would be over immediatly.

 

for Sports (Soccer first, Bundesliga, only Soccer really matters for germans). talks ongoing. Looks like 9th may or a week later they will try (if the reevaluation in 2 weeks brings positive results). stands empty. Minimum People involved. Players tested often. the DFL is working out concepts. I know from Bayern munich they are testing their Players 3 times a week the past weeks. Training ground they expanded to Groups of seven today (strikers-midfield-defenders).

 

small steps. but there is hope for Soccer mid may!

Nice

Germany has a large medical diagnostics industry so not surprised by you guys having the one of the first COVID19 tests. Our first test from the CDC was garbage ( and contaminated ) so we had to wait on the FDA to allow private industries to create tests. Put us way behind but we will catch up to you guys soon.

 

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4 minutes ago, jonninho said:

Love this update! keep them coming! i can only hope the rest of Europe is shortly behind Germany in this moment and that the likes of Italy, France, Portugal, Spain and the rest can get their economies restarted in the near future.

Question for you - How do you feel about the German government taking heat from its peers through out Europe for not helping the other nations enough? Or atleast what the other nations perceive as enough? What i am getting at is there is talk that Germany, who is well ahead of everybody else in terms of testing and protocol are not providing other countries with instruction on how they accomplished such a feat? and it could be looked at as leaving their peers left out to dry. I personally am not in the loop as much as you would be considering your place of residence, which is why i am genuinely asking for your opinion on the matter. Could Germany be doing more to help other countries with their outbreaks?

first-italy, spain, france will take longer. france for example expanded their stay at home orders til may 15th. germany has by FAR the most ICU beds/1000. compared to them. germany 8 ICU beds/1000- USA <3 ICU beds/1000. france and the others are in between. thats why our death numbers are so low. same goes for testing infrastructure.

and there is the problem. germany is VERY organized down to the local goverments (region-city-town level) regarding testing, tracing, labs, manpower, funding. thats not the case in the other countries. they dont have the infrastructure, the amount of labs, the manpower. so its difficult to copy germany on the fly.

could we do more? I think so. on the other hand we are taking in patients from other countries. espacially from france, netherlands, italy and spain. our system allows that. is it enough? I dont know. its a tricky question, because you dont know how the numbers will develop when you start to reopen. but the first peak is over in most of europe. so this should not be the biggest problem in the future.

most critic I hear is regarding money. who pays for this after its over? its pretty clear that espacially italy and spain will need massive help. so on EU level there is much discussion over debt and who pays for it. germany, netherlands and other northern countries doesnt want to vouch for debt in the southern countries. this will be a big problem for the EU in general. to find that compromise. but thats nothing new. for decades its that way. they ll figure it out. or something out....

 

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10 minutes ago, Dr. Whom said:

Nice

Germany has a large medical diagnostics industry so not surprised by you guys having the one of the first COVID19 tests. Our first test from the CDC was garbage ( and contaminated ) so we had to wait on the FDA to allow private industries to create tests. Put us way behind but we will catch up to you guys soon.

 

yeah. one of the first tests was developed in berlin-charite by professor drosten. highly regarded expert here. he posts a daily podcast now for weeks. with updates and scientific stuff. also advises angela merkel (with others). thats part of the success here. they are all open with information. and they dont mind to say "folks, we dont know. its new, we will see". thats why everybody here has big trust in merkel, goverment etc. a guy like trump who says daily "everything is fine. i m in control of this" is just an idiot and a clown to most germans. everybody knows that nothing really is under control. there is lack of masks here also for example. but merkel just today admitted it. and says they will try to do better now and in the future.  she then asks everybody to make the best of the situation.

i hope you ll catch up. you will need it. testing and tracing is key. but its way more difficult for you guys. we are 80+ million in a small country compared to the US. in order to reopen you ll have to reduce your numbers first. to be honest, they look ugly still. and trump wasted a month+. its difficult to catch up.

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35 minutes ago, tonycpsu said:

Hopefully the desire for a nuanced discussion includes a preference for data over anecdotes.  If so, let's keep in mind that these protesters are a very tiny sliver of the population, with polling consistently showing that Americans are about twice as concerned about easing restrictions too quickly as they are about not lifting them quickly enough.

That's not to say that we shouldn't take their legitimate concerns seriously, or that we should ignore unfortunate instances like people having non-emergency but still important surgeries put off or are delaying routine examinations and medical care -- a group that includes several family members of mine -- but when the protests are being led by a group so scammy that even fellow conservatives are attacking them, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that wanting to end stay-at-home orders is a minority view -- one that warrants a fair hearing, but ultimately, not reflective of a broad desire to risk a second wave of infections by easing restrictions too soon.

Definitely agree that data over anecdotes is absolutely important. I would just add that we should also consider the 22 million people that have filed for unemployment as another important data point in a nuanced discussion. 

 

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1 minute ago, KCTD25 said:

I would just add that we should also consider the 22 million people that have filed for unemployment as another important data point in a nuanced discussion. 

 

Definitely.  The financial hardship, including the massive unemployment numbers, have been discussed here a lot.  What I don't think people understand is that reopening businesses doesn't force customers to show up.  Maybe there will be a spike as people rush to hair stylists and dentists, but a lot of the public is still going to proceed with caution, meaning demand is not going to return to pre-lockdown levels for a very long time.  Just as a second wave of infections can happen, so too can a second wave of layoffs when business owners don't get the jolt they might be expecting.

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3 minutes ago, tonycpsu said:

 

Definitely.  The financial hardship, including the massive unemployment numbers, have been discussed here a lot.  What I don't think people understand is that reopening businesses doesn't force customers to show up.  Maybe there will be a spike as people rush to hair stylists and dentists, but a lot of the public is still going to proceed with caution, meaning demand is not going to return to pre-lockdown levels for a very long time.  Just as a second wave of infections can happen, so too can a second wave of layoffs when business owners don't get the jolt they might be expecting.

Absolutely. I know I won't be taking my family to eat at a sit down restaurant anytime soon, and that sucks for the small mom and pop restaurants all over out there, and all the staff they employ. I think the big chains will be fine, but hopefully some of those places can survive. The longer this goes though, the less of a chance they have. They'll have to be creative with seating arrangements, outdoor seating, etc. I think at least giving them that opportunity is important, at least in states that make sense.

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2 hours ago, tonycpsu said:

Hopefully the desire for a nuanced discussion includes a preference for data over anecdotes.  If so, let's keep in mind that these protesters are a very tiny sliver of the population, with polling consistently showing that Americans are about twice as concerned about easing restrictions too quickly as they are about not lifting them quickly enough.

That's not to say that we shouldn't take their legitimate concerns seriously, or that we should ignore unfortunate instances like people having non-emergency but still important surgeries put off or are delaying routine examinations and medical care -- a group that includes several family members of mine -- but when the protests are being led by a group so scammy that even fellow conservatives are attacking them, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that wanting to end stay-at-home orders is a minority view -- one that warrants a fair hearing, but ultimately, not reflective of a broad desire to risk a second wave of infections by easing restrictions too soon.

Part of the issue is specifically how michigan is handling it. Not all those protesters are a reflection of their opinion of social distancing as a whole.

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3 hours ago, cornerback said:

first-italy, spain, france will take longer. france for example expanded their stay at home orders til may 15th. germany has by FAR the most ICU beds/1000. compared to them. germany 8 ICU beds/1000- USA ❤️ ICU beds/1000. france and the others are in between. thats why our death numbers are so low. same goes for testing infrastructure.

and there is the problem. germany is VERY organized down to the local goverments (region-city-town level) regarding testing, tracing, labs, manpower, funding. thats not the case in the other countries. they dont have the infrastructure, the amount of labs, the manpower. so its difficult to copy germany on the fly.

could we do more? I think so. on the other hand we are taking in patients from other countries. espacially from france, netherlands, italy and spain. our system allows that. is it enough? I dont know. its a tricky question, because you dont know how the numbers will develop when you start to reopen. but the first peak is over in most of europe. so this should not be the biggest problem in the future.

most critic I hear is regarding money. who pays for this after its over? its pretty clear that espacially italy and spain will need massive help. so on EU level there is much discussion over debt and who pays for it. germany, netherlands and other northern countries doesnt want to vouch for debt in the southern countries. this will be a big problem for the EU in general. to find that compromise. but thats nothing new. for decades its that way. they ll figure it out. or something out....

 

I was reading on Portuguese newspaper 'Abola' that the 1st two divisions of German football have been given the green light to resume behind closed doors on May 9th.

In other football news, Sporting CP returned to training today, with only a few players at any given time (exactly how Germany started training again).. extending the distance to a full 10 metres between players. They brought their own fluids. Did not use change rooms. Came dressed and left straight to their car after practice.

We are slowly seeing light at the end of the tunnel.

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3 minutes ago, tonycpsu said:

 

Where do you stand on this, personally? In your opinion.. acceptable? or mistake? Georgia has put up almost 1000 new cases today alone.

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6 minutes ago, jonninho said:

Where do you stand on this, personally? In your opinion.. acceptable? or mistake? Georgia has put up almost 1000 new cases today alone.

Near Atlanta here.  Certainly not a surprise given Kemp's previous statements during the crisis.  Gonna have to hold our breath and see what happens I guess.  Hope for the best.  Cases will almost certainly go up.

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2 hours ago, KCTD25 said:

Absolutely. I know I won't be taking my family to eat at a sit down restaurant anytime soon, and that sucks for the small mom and pop restaurants all over out there, and all the staff they employ. I think the big chains will be fine, but hopefully some of those places can survive. The longer this goes though, the less of a chance they have. They'll have to be creative with seating arrangements, outdoor seating, etc. I think at least giving them that opportunity is important, at least in states that make sense.

 

Restaurants are open for take out here so I've been throwing some business to mom and pop.  Some of the more popular ones seem to be doing well.  There's a thai place that has a whole system down where you call in your order and then they bring it to your car.  Of course, many other places are closed or taking a beating.  Certain foods aren't usually take out, few people get take out at more upscale places, etc.  

Chain restaurants were already bailed out by the crooks.  The worst snippet here is Shake Shake getting a $10million loan when they have $100million cash on hand, as small places are denied loans.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/19/business/small-businesses-ppp-loans-chain-restaurants/index.html

At the end of the day, this will be a great benefit to large chains because their competition in local business will be destroyed and they can tighten their stranglehold.  When you compare the amount of campaign contributions, speaking fees, lobbying, fake jobs for family members, and other bribes that are thrown around by large corporations vs small business, I think you'll be able to guess which businesses DC will save and which ones they will be pleased to see die.  

This is an opportunity in a way, to reevaluate where we are headed.  So far it looks like the things that made our society fragile, as discussed in that rolling stone historian interview someone posted, will be exacerbated.

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