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Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion

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5 minutes ago, Gohawks said:

- Illinois governor saying churches won’t be able to gather with 50+ until vaccine available 

- Hair Salon owner sent to jail for 7 days while states are releasing prisoners 

- Helicopters flying over beaches telling people to leave 

- Important and potentially life saving procedures not available in a lot of places 

- LA city council voting to list hotels and potentially take control of them that refuse to host homeless 

Welcome to 1984 boys...

I think you need to reread that book.

What you have is a list of decentralized local government and business decisions performed independently of each other.

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1 minute ago, Gohawks said:

- Illinois governor saying churches won’t be able to gather with 50+ until vaccine available 

 

False:

Quote

Public gatherings in Phase 4 would be limited to 50 people, but the governor warned that number is subject to change “depending upon what the science tells us at the time.”

 

3 minutes ago, Gohawks said:

- Hair Salon owner sent to jail for 7 days while states are releasing prisoners 

 

In Texas, where here they aren't actually releasing prisoners, and where the governor is trying to stop efforts to do so.

5 minutes ago, Gohawks said:

- Helicopters flying over beaches telling people to leave 

 

Huh.  So you're saying that when people unlawfully assemble, law enforcement uses helicopters to get them to disperse?  The tyranny!

7 minutes ago, Gohawks said:

- Important and potentially life saving procedures not available in a lot of places 

 

[citation needed]

7 minutes ago, Gohawks said:

- LA city council voting to list hotels and potentially take control of them that refuse to host homeless 

 

Yes, the horror of using the state power to... put people in empty buildings.  🙄

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1 hour ago, Gohawks said:

I’ve been over this multiple times.

It is unavoidable that the initial curve will be higher when everything is open. However, how it will look in a year is the question. Sweden very well may face a much faster peak and in the end the result will be similar. My point is, all these “experts” we listen to had them projected to be way worse than everyone else. 

Its not a simple conversation of just saving lives. Economy and liberty factors into it. 

You have and several times I’ve shown things in the past that completely and totally debunk your idea. This isn’t the first US pandemic. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Gohawks said:

Its not a simple conversation of just saving lives. Economy and liberty factors into it. 

They do NOT factor in at all if you died from the virus because someone stupid you ran into at the grocery store thought rules weren't for him and wearing a mask took away his liberty and he ended up infecting you.  Sometimes selflessness and sacrifice trumps selfishness and personal desires.  This is one such time just like WWII was.

There is no liberty nor money (economy) for the dead.  You are just assuming you somehow won't be one of them.  Don't assume anything.

Edited by The Big Bat Theory

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Those of us who are Gen X and younger are the first generations not to be forced into the military, shipped overseas and made to run straight at someone who is trying to blow our brains out, and we got people who think we've lost our liberty because you can't willfully spread a virus during a pandemic just to prove that you can.

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Anyone hear Jeff Passan during the KBO games saying players don’t feel safe starting? Saying they need not only the owners and players, but also the government and prominent health experts to be ready for opening. Says they don’t want to look like they are taking tests away from frontline people and that testing is nowhere near where it needs to be. Seems very, very skeptical from the announcers. High ranking official said June or July was highly optimistic. 

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4 minutes ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

They do NOT factor in at all if you died from the virus because someone stupid you ran into at the grocery store thought rules weren't for him and wearing a mask took away his liberty and he ended up infecting you.  Sometimes selflessness and sacrifice trumps selfishness and personal desires.  This is one such time just like WWII was.

This is such a short sighted claim i don't even know where to begin.

Let's all ignore the people that lose jobs, can't provide, lose their businesses, fall into depression, commit suicide, and whatever else from this situation because people die from it. The audacity to claim that wanting to open the economy is selfish comes from a point of irony and hypocrisy. It's a VERY good and convincing straw man i'll give you that much.

Oh, and for the record, no one is advocating just straight up opening the economy. Take heavy measures to help those at high risk (like nursing homes). Also things like easing into much larger gatherings like sporting events. People that advocate for keeping things closed don't have a plan. What's the plan? To buy time? For what exactly? A vaccine which can take ages? What exactly are you advocating for?

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3 minutes ago, GamblorLA said:

Those of us who are Gen X and younger are the first generations not to be forced into the military, shipped overseas and made to run straight at someone who is trying to blow our brains out, and we got people who think we've lost our liberty because you can't willfully spread a virus during a pandemic just to prove that you can.

I think the mere fact that so many of us hyperbolically claim we're being thrown into some sort of dystopian fascist state paradoxically shows how far away we are from it.  In a sick way, it's encouraging.

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3 minutes ago, Gohawks said:

Oh, and for the record, no one is advocating just straight up opening the economy. Take heavy measures to help those at high risk (like nursing homes). Also things like easing into much larger gatherings like sporting events. People that advocate for keeping things closed don't have a plan. What's the plan? To buy time? For what exactly? A vaccine which can take ages? What exactly are you advocating for?

 

I'd be absolutely thrilled if all 50 states reopened, but based on specific benchmarks set at the federal level for number of new cases, hospital capacity, testing capacity, and other key metrics.  Nancy Pelosi has put forward what I think is a reasonable compromise plan that lays out these metrics, but unfortunately, most states are rushing headlong into reopening despite not meeting most of those benchmarks, and, in many cases, with the number of cases rising, not falling.

Wait, did I say Nancy Pelosi?  My bad.  That's the White House's plan.

These states are doing this over the objections of many of their own people, including many business owners who don't feel safe reopening, and would rather muddle through and let their employees draw unemployment until they feel they aren't endangering their customers.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Gohawks said:

“Experts” had Sweden’s death count predictions at 40,000 by now.

They are at 3,000. 10th in deaths and not even top 20 in cases adjusted for population size.

I would say it’s working out quite fine for Sweden. You won’t hear it anywhere though because it doesn’t fit the narrative. Imagine if Sweden was actually leading in all these categories like predicted. The media would swallow it up.

Norway- 35,406 tests per million population, 217 total deaths

Denmark-49,114 tests per million, 514 deaths

Iceland-151,397 tests per million, 10 total deaths

Sweden-14,704 tests per million, 3,040 total deaths. 

Sweden has about 50k or more tests less than every country named there outside of Iceland, which has a grossly lower population. Can’t have positive tests if you aren’t testing and it’s weird the Scandinavian country the most opened up with by far the most deaths is testing far, far less than its neighbors. 

Edited by daynlokki
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1 hour ago, tonycpsu said:

 

False:

My apologies. A sustained period without increase in cases or treatment also works. However, he made it clear that if it takes a year so be it. 

 

1 hour ago, tonycpsu said:

 

In Texas, where here they aren't actually releasing prisoners, and where the governor is trying to stop efforts to do so.

Yes. That is one example. There are plenty other examples of people getting arrested. While Texas is not releasing prisoners, other states are. Why is beyond me.

 

1 hour ago, tonycpsu said:

Huh.  So you're saying that when people unlawfully assemble, law enforcement uses helicopters to get them to disperse?  The tyranny!

What is unlawfully assemble? There was even footage of police following people on a hike on a drone. San Diego police giving out tickets to people watching a sunset. People can social distance in public and people can social distance with their family. Going to the beach is different than having a party at the beach. I am 100% fine with cops giving people tickets for hosting parties under the current condition. It's different if a family is walking on the beach and is told to go home.

 

1 hour ago, tonycpsu said:

[citation needed]

Elective procedures in Washington State were banned in mid march (source https://www.governor.wa.gov/news-media/inslee-orders-halt-elective-surgeries-and-dental-services-reserve-critical-equipment)

Some elective procedures were allowed to resume on the 29th. Keep in mind, not all. Now, I get the initial concern. Except, hospitals aren't over run. The projections were off (http://www.healthdata.org/news-release/new-ihme-covid-19-forecasts-find-lower-hospital-bed-need-epidemics-starting-peak) and they were off by a significant margin.

1 hour ago, tonycpsu said:

Yes, the horror of using the state power to... put people in empty buildings.  🙄

Buildings not owned by the state. If you cannot see the horror in the state telling you it will seize your own property because you refuse to put homeless people in it I don't know what to tell you. Borderline going on infringing the 4th amendment. 

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12 minutes ago, JE7HorseGod said:

I think the mere fact that so many of us hyperbolically claim we're being thrown into some sort of dystopian fascist state paradoxically shows how far away we are from it.  In a sick way, it's encouraging.

 

On the flipside, I think part of the problem in the US is that we have the most corrupt federal government in the first world, and also far worse than many smaller and poorer countries.  They're now talking about bailout money for lobbyists. Really. If that occurred in a satire, it would be too on the nose.  I think, conservatively, 80% of the population would oppose measures like that and bailing out investors in foreign cruise lines, but that's what happens.  There's so little connection between our interests and theirs now, and they've insulated themselves from popular influence or accountability.  

 

People in other countries know that if the virus doesn't get them, they'll basically be OK.  Here, we'll allow small businesses and individuals to be destroyed.  Never mind if you do get the virus, survive and wind up stuck with a $30k medical bill.  That's certainly part of the desire to force things open.  Though much of it is also ignorance (our terrible educational system and media) and selfishness. 

 

This comes full circle in that, as we open things early, the government can now deny aid to small businesses and individuals because the "chose" to stay closed or home.  Or in the case of a small business, if they open and nobody comes, they can just be regarded as a business that failed.  In short, the lack of support drives people out and this can be used to justify even less support.  

 

So we're far from a fascistic state in some ways... nobody is going to come to my house and shoot me for posting this.  In others, we're pretty screwed. Because if this crisis can't cause DC to act in the interests of the population, nothing can.  We could be invaded by aliens and they'd figure out a way to transfer a bunch of public money to hedge funds. 

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2 hours ago, tonycpsu said:

Yes, the horror of using the state power to... put people in empty buildings.  🙄

Someone's private property is just "an empty building" to be used by the state ? Wow. OK.

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21 minutes ago, GamblorLA said:

 

On the flipside, I think part of the problem in the US is that we have the most corrupt federal government in the first world, and also far worse than many smaller and poorer countries.  They're now talking about bailout money for lobbyists. Really. If that occurred in a satire, it would be too on the nose.  I think, conservatively, 80% of the population would oppose measures like that and bailing out investors in foreign cruise lines, but that's what happens.  There's so little connection between our interests and theirs now, and they've insulated themselves from popular influence or accountability.  

 

People in other countries know that if the virus doesn't get them, they'll basically be OK.  Here, we'll allow small businesses and individuals to be destroyed.  Never mind if you do get the virus, survive and wind up stuck with a $30k medical bill.  That's certainly part of the desire to force things open.  Though much of it is also ignorance (our terrible educational system and media) and selfishness. 

 

This comes full circle in that, as we open things early, the government can now deny aid to small businesses and individuals because the "chose" to stay closed or home.  Or in the case of a small business, if they open and nobody comes, they can just be regarded as a business that failed.  In short, the lack of support drives people out and this can be used to justify even less support.  

 

So we're far from a fascistic state in some ways... nobody is going to come to my house and shoot me for posting this.  In others, we're pretty screwed. Because if this crisis can't cause DC to act in the interests of the population, nothing can.  We could be invaded by aliens and they'd figure out a way to transfer a bunch of public money to hedge funds. 

Yeah graft, corruption and cronyism are a lot more common place in our country than the acceptance of an authoritarian state.

Some human beings are just terrible, selfish people and unfortunately these types of people are often socially promoted to be the top of the food chain, because they spend most of their time figuring out how to manipulate people.  Unfortunately that's the cost of a free society from time to time.

The good news, as Hawthorne put it unlike some previous civilizations is that "families are always rising and falling in America."

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3 minutes ago, fletch44 said:

Someone's private property is just "an empty building" to be used by the state ? Wow. OK.

 

The Defense Product Act was used to compel American companies to support the war effort during WW2, and to compel companies to make masks about a month ago.  As the old joke goes, we've all established what kind of country we are, now we're just haggling over the price.

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1 minute ago, tonycpsu said:

 

The Defense Product Act was used to compel American companies to support the war effort during WW2, and to compel companies to make masks about a month ago.  As the old joke goes, we've all established what kind of country we are, now we're just haggling over the price.

Worked for Ford.

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3 minutes ago, tonycpsu said:

 

The Defense Product Act was used to compel American companies to support the war effort during WW2, and to compel companies to make masks about a month ago.  As the old joke goes, we've all established what kind of country we are, now we're just haggling over the price.

It’s also recently been used to force food plants to reopen. 

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Michigan is extended stay at home until the 28th now.  

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3 minutes ago, WahooManiac said:

Michigan is extended stay at home until the 28th now.  

Numbers have been pretty high if I remember correctly. 

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25 minutes ago, tonycpsu said:

 

The Defense Product Act was used to compel American companies to support the war effort during WW2, and to compel companies to make masks about a month ago.  As the old joke goes, we've all established what kind of country we are, now we're just haggling over the price.

The defense production act does not apply to giving someone the right to put homeless people in private properties. The definition of the act is in the name. Doing so is much closer to the violation of the 4th amendment than the defense production act.

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It's the same principle.  The country (or in this case the state) cedes power to private companies through zoning laws so those companies can conduct business.  It is the state's right to intervene at any time they believe necessary.  We can argue about whether specific ends justify these means, but the act of the state deciding to take its power back from the companies that use its land is the same.

The idea that this is a violation on the U.S. Constitution's prohibition on illegal search and seizure is simply laughable.

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4 minutes ago, Gohawks said:

The defense production act does not apply to giving someone the right to put homeless people in private properties. The definition of the act is in the name. Doing so is much closer to the violation of the 4th amendment than the defense production act.

The current version of the law still gives the executive branch substantial powers. It allows the president, largely through executive order, to direct private companies to prioritize orders from the federal government. The president is also empowered to “allocate materials, services, and facilities” for national defense purposes, and take actions to restrict hoarding of needed supplies

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1 minute ago, daynlokki said:

The current version of the law still gives the executive branch substantial powers. It allows the president, largely through executive order, to direct private companies to prioritize orders from the federal government. The president is also empowered to “allocate materials, services, and facilities” for national defense purposes, and take actions to restrict hoarding of needed supplies

This is not the president doing so is it?

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1 minute ago, daynlokki said:

The current version of the law still gives the executive branch substantial powers. It allows the president, largely through executive order, to direct private companies to prioritize orders from the federal government. The president is also empowered to “allocate materials, services, and facilities” for national defense purposes, and take actions to restrict hoarding of needed supplies

Right. So this does not apply to the LA City Council.

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Just now, Gohawks said:

This is not the president doing so is it?

If we are discussing the defense product act it 100% is. 

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