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Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion

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Plus, even if Bill Gates does implant me with a mind control chip, he'll probably do a better job of running my life than I have up till now.  

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1 hour ago, AnonymousRob said:

ESPECIALLY when you consider one of the biggest - arguably *the* biggest - opponent to medical opinions is Trump. A man who as of a month ago had averaged 15 lies or misleading statements every single day for the past 1,170 days.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/04/14/president-trump-made-18000-false-or-misleading-claims-1170-days/

Looking through that couple things

1) They like to count exaggeration and hyperbole as a lie

2) They like to count things they disagree with as lies

3) They even have opinions classified as lies. Which relates to point 2. 

I'm reading through the posts and yes, Trump does lie and mislead. Every politician does and I am not here to exempt him or defend that just to make it clear. However, the numbers are absurdly skewed and so much of those "fact checks" are total BS. 

For instance, they get Trump for calling San Francisco a slum. That's hilarious. How is his opinion on a city wrong or misleading? They also get Trump for saying the stock market set a one day record. It went up 11% highest since 1933. Their reason? "It's unclear what Trump is talking about here." Mmmm no it's pretty clear. That's on you for not understanding it. I only read through a few but i'm sure I can keep going.

I also find it absolutely hilarious how they countlessly slam him for misleading by saying we lead the world in tests and our employment rates are the highest ever. Their reason? He doesn't factor in per capita. The reason I find this hilarious is because this same left leaning media has been spewing for who knows how long that the USA is leading in cases and deaths...without factoring in per capita. Although I suppose "USA just outside of top 10 in deaths per capita" doesn't have the same ring to it. 

Modern media is a joke all across the board. Polls done even suggest most people don't agree with the media handling of the situation. By the way, Trump said that most people don't trust the media on the Coronavirus. Guess what? Washingtonpost market that as a lie as well and then sited their own convenient poll. What a joke.

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1 hour ago, Gohawks said:

Looking through that couple things

1) They like to count exaggeration and hyperbole as a lie

2) They like to count things they disagree with as lies

3) They even have opinions classified as lies. Which relates to point 2. 

I'm reading through the posts and yes, Trump does lie and mislead. Every politician does and I am not here to exempt him or defend that just to make it clear. However, the numbers are absurdly skewed and so much of those "fact checks" are total BS. 

For instance, they get Trump for calling San Francisco a slum. That's hilarious. How is his opinion on a city wrong or misleading? They also get Trump for saying the stock market set a one day record. It went up 11% highest since 1933. Their reason? "It's unclear what Trump is talking about here." Mmmm no it's pretty clear. That's on you for not understanding it. I only read through a few but i'm sure I can keep going.

I also find it absolutely hilarious how they countlessly slam him for misleading by saying we lead the world in tests and our employment rates are the highest ever. Their reason? He doesn't factor in per capita. The reason I find this hilarious is because this same left leaning media has been spewing for who knows how long that the USA is leading in cases and deaths...without factoring in per capita. Although I suppose "USA just outside of top 10 in deaths per capita" doesn't have the same ring to it. 

Modern media is a joke all across the board. Polls done even suggest most people don't agree with the media handling of the situation. By the way, Trump said that most people don't trust the media on the Coronavirus. Guess what? Washingtonpost market that as a lie as well and then sited their own convenient poll. What a joke.

I would like to point out that for tests, per capita is far more important than total number of tests. For deaths, the most important number will always be the overall total lost. Saying we lost less per capita than other countries completely and totally disregards those lives lost and marginalizes those people as well. 

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19 minutes ago, daynlokki said:

I would like to point out that for tests, per capita is far more important than total number of tests. For deaths, the most important number will always be the overall total lost. Saying we lost less per capita than other countries completely and totally disregards those lives lost and marginalizes those people as well. 

Well I think the context matters. It’s not to marginalize the deaths by any means. However, it’s also unfair to say the USA is doing worse because of our deaths when we carry the third largest population size.

Yes, it is a more important number. Of course deaths per capita doesn’t change how much people died. However, the US will have more deaths than France when there’s like 270M more people for instance. It’s important when deaths are used by the media to push a certain agenda. 

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5 hours ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

Scientists are scientist.  They make judgements on facts.  Politicians are politicians.  They do not always make judgements on facts.  Enough said.

Dr Fauci is head of the CDC. There are more people than him at the CDC.  Thousands more.  He represents their findings.  He is not sitting alone in his closet starring into a crystal ball or consulting his magic 8 ball for that matter.  Other scientists and medical personal in various hospitals and universities and research facilities all agree on these basics too.  They have no ax to grind. 

So what the hell are those "compelling reasons" to question their "motivation" again?  Is there some conspiracy site that says Falci is in league with Bill Gates to quarantine people for no reason other than to aid and abet an alien invasion of baseball player snatchers who want to draft Mike Trout for their Omicron Persei 8 (shout out to Futurama) planetary team or something?  Because honestly why would scientists have ulterior motivations?  Or is saving lives an ulterior motivation these days?

All this anti-science stuff these days is right up their with the old church wanting Galileo to recant.

Human beings are human beings.  You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to see that a crisis like this benefits some people.  Fauci is a guy most people never heard of before, now he has Brad Pitt playing him on SNL.  Bet he hates that.   And if you're a *public* health professional, you absolutely have political motivation as you work for a government agency, which means the growth and power of your agency depends not on its performance in the marketplace among competition but on public opinion.  So the more scared people are, the more they feel better knowing we have these big public health agencies with smart fancy doctors designed to protect them.  Even if they're like the CDC and the FDA, both of which arrogantly insist on monopolizing testing in the US as much as possible, dragging their feet and getting in the way of private and academic development of diagnostic tests that might have provided an early warning and a head start on controlling the virus.

Yes, most doctors are saying generally the same thing - this is a serious threat and it would be a big mistake to ignore it and pretend it's just gonna go away with no consequences.  Not all of them are saying that the solution is to lock down the entire world as much as possible for as long as it takes, don't you worry about how long, we're the smart ones, we'll tell you when you can come out and by the way if you question us it's obviously because you want people to die because we're the doctors and you're not.  Plenty of them have advocated from the start that we've overreacted terribly.  Which is predictable if you think about it - the initial models used to create that "flatten the curve" graph were absolutely terrifying, and we really had no other information to go on.  Now as we have more and more information emerging, many people - especially government and the media - are never going to admit they may have been spectacularly wrong in a way that's caused immense needless suffering for countless people.  Bottom line is we're all human beings here.  There is no magic person with a magic answer, but that's the attitude I pick up when I'm told I'm "anti-science" for questioning the people who continue to tell me I'm selfish and irresponsible for wanting to live my life.  If it's true, prove it.  Not by appealling to authority.  I mean actual proof.

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2 hours ago, Gohawks said:

Well I think the context matters. It’s not to marginalize the deaths by any means. However, it’s also unfair to say the USA is doing worse because of our deaths when we carry the third largest population size.

Yes, it is a more important number. Of course deaths per capita doesn’t change how much people died. However, the US will have more deaths than France when there’s like 270M more people for instance. It’s important when deaths are used by the media to push a certain agenda. 

What agenda is being pushed other than a lot of people are dying who didn't need to die if this had been handled better?

Also, now that you're back can you clarify your insistence states have no plan despite your home state literally having a plan? I was trying to give you benefit of the doubt on what you consider a plan but would like to better understand if you simply were mistaken in thinking nobody has a plan as you repeatedly claimed, or if we fundamentally disagree on the definition of the word.

On 5/9/2020 at 9:04 AM, AnonymousRob said:

What's your definition of a plan? Perhaps we should agree on basics before we start talking past each other.

 

On 5/9/2020 at 11:15 AM, daynlokki said:

https://www.governor.wa.gov/news-media/inslee-signs-new-covid-19-order-phased-re-opening-washingtons-economy
 

Yup, no plan at all for Washington except for the televised one anyone could have see.  

 

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7 hours ago, AnonymousRob said:

What is it you think I *want* to hear? Because experts are saying lots of people are drying and lots more people are going to die if we refuse to take basic precautions. What is it about that that makes you feel it's easy? 

 

This is part of what I really cannot wrap my head around. Again, there are medical professionals who work and study this exact thing we're dealing with. The majority of them are mostly saying the same thing (with some minor disagreements over minor specifics).

 

And yet...we're supposed to look at "both sides" with some degree of equal credibility instead of laughing them out of the room. It's utter insanity. It all reminds me of that famous Asimov quote, "Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"

Seriously, when did we get to the point that experts in their field became an insult or a bad thing? The idea that each of us can pour over all the data and all the information and judge things for ourselves is something I find gobsmackingly insulting. Like, sure, doctors and other healthcare professionals have spent years, if not decades, doing this very thing. How much time could any of us have possibly spent going through all the information to be taken as a serious source on par with Fauci or other people who have been spending their career in this subject? Hell, how many of us are even working in healthcare and going to work to directly deal with this stuff on a daily basis?

I'm probably stretching the thread here, but here it is.

I'm very concerned with how we treat subject matter experts in our age of digital social media.

Just because two people have a microphone, or a blue check mark, or whatever doesn't mean that we should treat their opinions on the same subject matter as equal.

People who spend decades studying the history and science of something have empirically proven that their opinion matters more than the person who just googled it a couple of weeks ago and has since read a couple articles on it.

Yet I feel like sometimes, for whatever reason, there feels like a lot of people who want this to now be a "let's hear everyone out, both sides" kind of public debate.  That's not logical.

I think it's logical to have both economic and health concerns now, and I feel like virtually all of us do.  But to say, "this infectious disease expert who has been working to explain public health concerns to the American public since the Reagan administration, should be given just the same weight when talking about herd immunity as Larry the Cable Guy, who wants to get 'er done" is just leading us down a road of insanity.

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"There's no reason to be walking around with a mask," infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci told 60 Minutes.  While masks may block some droplets, Fauci said, they do not provide the level of protection people think they do. Wearing a mask may also have unintended consequences: People who wear masks tend to touch their face more often to adjust them, which can spread germs from their hands.


Seriously guys, just listen to the experts.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Backdoor Slider said:

"There's no reason to be walking around with a mask," infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci told 60 Minutes.  While masks may block some droplets, Fauci said, they do not provide the level of protection people think they do. Wearing a mask may also have unintended consequences: People who wear masks tend to touch their face more often to adjust them, which can spread germs from their hands.


Seriously guys, just listen to the experts.

Did you listen to his entire quote, or are you simply running with this?

 

Eta Link for others to listen for themselves.

Edited by AnonymousRob

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1 minute ago, AnonymousRob said:

Did you listen to his entire quote, or are you simply running with this?

Which part would you like to add that changes the meaning of this?

But dude I’m with you! Anyone who was wearing a mask in March, I shook my head and laughed at the anti-intellectualism of the people who thought they knew more than the experts! 

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7 minutes ago, Backdoor Slider said:

"There's no reason to be walking around with a mask," infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci told 60 Minutes.  While masks may block some droplets, Fauci said, they do not provide the level of protection people think they do. Wearing a mask may also have unintended consequences: People who wear masks tend to touch their face more often to adjust them, which can spread germs from their hands.


Seriously guys, just listen to the experts.

this article/interview was over two months ago.

what do you think should happen when additional information is learned through scientific studies? 

are you suggesting that we shouldn't listen to doctors/scientists when they learn new information? or maybe you're suggesting they shouldn't put out updated recommendations?

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If you don't want to listen to Fauci, fine. But the next guy up can't be the one wondering aloud if injecting household disinfectants is the cure.

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2 minutes ago, Backdoor Slider said:

Which part would you like to add that changes the meaning of this?

But dude I’m with you! Anyone who was wearing a mask in March, I shook my head and laughed at the anti-intellectualism of the people who thought they knew more than the experts! 

It was in March. Healthcare workers still struggle to have enough masks.

 

But the fact you find this to be some kind of gotcha because he isn't doubling down on his statement as time and more information emerges is incredibly revealing. Thank you for making your perspective incredibly clear throughout this thread. I appreciate being able to better understand people and I'll make sure to take it into account with your future posts.

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At the time Fauci said that, there was a critical shortage of masks for the people who really needed them.  As we've started to build up supply, he's softened that stance:

Should the public wear face masks? Experts are weighing new guidance

Quote

But since the CDC says as many as 25% of people infected with the virus don't have any symptoms themselves, but can still spread it, would asking everyone to wear masks in public offer some protection? Fauci cautioned that such a recommendation will be contingent on having an adequate supply.

"One thing you don't want to do is, by recommending that people in the community generally wear masks, is if it takes it away from the people who really need it," Fauci said. [...]

He and the surgeon general both made clear that any recommendations for the public would involve simple fabric surgical-style masks, which could even be homemade — not the higher-grade N95 respirator masks used by health care workers on the front lines.

"If you are going to wear face covering when you go out, please understand you still don't need an N95 mask," Adams said. "And if you take one of those N95 masks, you could be taking it out of the hands of a health care worker who desperately needs it to care for patients."

 

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3 minutes ago, osb_tensor said:

this article/interview was over two months ago.

what do you think should happen when additional information is learned through scientific studies? 

are you suggesting that we shouldn't listen to doctors/scientists when they learn new information? or maybe you're suggesting they shouldn't put out updated recommendations?

I’m suggesting:

1) The people who DIDNT listen to the experts here were better off, clearly.

2) They’ve been wearing masks in China for years when viruses are around, with much success. Our experts knew this.

3) Most importantly, there are MANY experts, not just one. And some, not so surprisingly, have different opinions. 

Sweden is approaching herd immunization. If because of this, they largely avoid a second wave and we don’t and get hit harder, there’s a very good chance our experts took the wrong path. And that’s an ok conversation to have, without “anyone who disagrees with Fauci is a mindless idiot who is an anti-vaxxer and thinks it’s a hoax MAGA2020!” 

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3 minutes ago, tonycpsu said:

At the time Fauci said that, there was a critical shortage of masks for the people who really needed them.  As we've started to build up supply, he's softened that stance:

Should the public wear face masks? Experts are weighing new guidance

 

Cool. So he “fibbed” and put all our lives on the line for the greater good. Got it.

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Just now, Backdoor Slider said:

Cool. So he “fibbed” and put all our lives on the line for the greater good. Got it.

 

Who fibbed?  Nothing he said was wrong -- they don't offer the protection people think, and people who aren't used to using them can actually end up worse off by touching their face constantly.  In an environment where there's a constrained supply of masks, it's better for everyone if the people who need them get them, particularly healthcare workers.  Now that circumstances have changed, he's acknowledging that they do provide some protection, even if it's not as much as people might think.

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2 minutes ago, Backdoor Slider said:

I’m suggesting:

1) The people who DIDNT listen to the experts here were better off, clearly.

2) They’ve been wearing masks in China for years when viruses are around, with much success. Our experts knew this.

3) Most importantly, there are MANY experts, not just one. And some, not so surprisingly, have different opinions. 

Sweden is approaching herd immunization. If because of this, they largely avoid a second wave and we don’t and get hit harder, there’s a very good chance our experts took the wrong path. And that’s an ok conversation to have, without “anyone who disagrees with Fauci is a mindless idiot who is an anti-vaxxer and thinks it’s a hoax MAGA2020!” 

I'm certainly not regarding Dr. Fauci as infallible, perhaps others are, I can't speak to that.

That said, although he may be wrong at times or had a motivation to protect resources for front line health workers when supplies were low or whatever the case may be, I'm still listening to him more closely on the matters of preventing the spread of infections disease moreso than people who don't have years of expertise studying infectious disease.

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27 minutes ago, JE7HorseGod said:

I'm probably stretching the thread here, but here it is.

I'm very concerned with how we treat subject matter experts in our age of digital social media.

Just because two people have a microphone, or a blue check mark, or whatever doesn't mean that we should treat their opinions on the same subject matter as equal.

People who spend decades studying the history and science of something have empirically proven that their opinion matters more than the person who just googled it a couple of weeks ago and has since read a couple articles on it.

Yet I feel like sometimes, for whatever reason, there feels like a lot of people who want this to now be a "let's hear everyone out, both sides" kind of public debate.  That's not logical.

I think it's logical to have both economic and health concerns now, and I feel like virtually all of us do.  But to say, "this infectious disease expert who has been working to explain public health concerns to the American public since the Reagan administration, should be given just the same weight when talking about herd immunity as Larry the Cable Guy, who wants to get 'er done" is just leading us down a road of insanity.

 MD's are not usually psychologists or economists. Policy making is requires knowledge of a much wider knowledge base. You can still critique how this is being handled while not dis-missing the experts in the field of biology/healthcare/virology. Fields that have more of a foundation in the scientific method then political science/policy making and even psychology.

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3 minutes ago, JE7HorseGod said:

I'm certainly not regarding Dr. Fauci as infallible, perhaps others are, I can't speak to that.

That said, although he may be wrong at times or had a motivation to protect resources for front line health workers when supplies were low or whatever the case may be, I'm still listening to him more closely on the matters of preventing the spread of infections disease moreso than people who don't have years of expertise studying infectious disease.

Agree. My point is, some others are experts that pushed the Sweden plan. Again, they may AVOID a second wave (still in the air).

I do not discount Fauci at all. I wear a mask any time I go in anywhere. And wear gloves. But there are many here that refuse to listen to anything else. I only am pointing out that he is not infallible. It’s so bizarre to me the way some here (I can quote them all if you’d like, it’s not you. I’m sure you can figure it out) refuse to listen to more than one avenue. Lots of experts with lots of different ways to attack a new virus. Then of course I somehow get lumped in as someone who listens to Trump because, you know, strawman and all. 

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11 minutes ago, tonycpsu said:

 

Who fibbed?  Nothing he said was wrong -- they don't offer the protection people think, and people who aren't used to using them can actually end up worse off by touching their face constantly.  In an environment where there's a constrained supply of masks, it's better for everyone if the people who need them get them, particularly healthcare workers.  Now that circumstances have changed, he's acknowledging that they do provide some protection, even if it's not as much as people might think.

It went from “there’s no reason to be walking around with a mask” to mandatory in many places. So...there is a reason?

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Just now, Slatykamora said:

 MD's are not usually psychologists or economists. Policy making is requires knowledge of a much wider knowledge base. You can still critique how this is being handled while not dis-missing the experts in the field of biology/healthcare/virology. Fields that have more of a foundation in the scientific method then political science/policy making and even psychology.

Absolutely!  Obviously the issue of reopening the economy while potentially experiencing another outbreak touches on a huge variety of different issues, and we should hear an analysis from subject matter experts on what they determine to be the pros and cons of all of them.

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1 minute ago, Backdoor Slider said:

It went from “there’s no reason to be walking around with a mask” to mandatory in many places. So...there is a reason?

 

Yup.

 

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Just now, tonycpsu said:

 

Yup.

 

Nah. China and other places always knew there was a reason to be walking around with masks. 

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Just now, Backdoor Slider said:

Nah. China and other places always knew there was a reason to be walking around with masks. 

 

They had a culture of wearing masks long before COVID-19 was a thing.  We didn't.  That means they had supply, and we didn't.

Come on.

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