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Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion

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9 hours ago, Slatykamora said:

You are shocked we would side AGAINST billionaires? Okie Dokie

I side AGAINST both the owners and the top tier players.  A plague on both their houses as Shakespeare would said.

Both these groups are rich to various degrees and neither of these groups are facing the possibility of homeless or inability to feed their families during the next year no matter what.  But many thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of their fellow Americans will be.  And to argue over whether you have 7 million in the bank this year or a "mere" 3 million sounds obscene right now.  So the Players Association should tell Snell to put a sock in it because Snell is NOT helping their side at all with that stupid public rant.

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40 minutes ago, AnonymousRob said:

Faced with an appalling US coronavirus death toll, the right denies the figures

Some possible insight into why and how some are fighting and denying the numbers so much.

There are no words for people like that.  It is bad enough for relatives of these victims losing them to covid-19 but then to try and take away what they suffered and died of and have these nutcases spin their crazy, crackpot conspiracy **** makes my blood boil.  This is rapidly reaching the level of Holocaust deniers.

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1 hour ago, AnonymousRob said:

Faced with an appalling US coronavirus death toll, the right denies the figures

 

^^^

Some possible insight into why and how some are fighting and denying the numbers so much.

Examples like in the link below might be why some people are questioning the numbers:

https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/05/14/coronavirus-montezuma-county-coroner-alcohol-poisoning-covid-death/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

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16 minutes ago, KCTD25 said:

Everyone has an agenda. Unfortunately some people think just the “other side” does. It’s sad, but this link (or many other similar examples) won’t change anything.

Imagine if you will that it leaks that Fauci presented the President with two options: Lock down or herd immunity. Both a lot of deaths, but lock down stretches them out. Trump says, “The numbers will look bad for me, I’d rather have some deaths come after the election!”

Whst percentage of people in this thread and around the country would all of the sudden be saying he should’ve went that route? Lol

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14 minutes ago, Backdoor Slider said:

Everyone has an agenda. Unfortunately some people think just the “other side” does. It’s sad, but this link (or many other similar examples) won’t change anything.

Imagine if you will that it leaks that Fauci presented the President with two options: Lock down or herd immunity. Both a lot of deaths, but lock down stretches them out. Trump says, “The numbers will look bad for me, I’d rather have some deaths come after the election!”

Whst percentage of people in this thread and around the country would all of the sudden be saying he should’ve went that route? Lol

Yep. A lot of it is politics, on both sides. I have no doubt that numbers are being inflated in some states, and I have no doubt they are being undercounted in some states. 

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1 hour ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

There are no words for people like that.  It is bad enough for relatives of these victims losing them to covid-19 but then to try and take away what they suffered and died of and have these nutcases spin their crazy, crackpot conspiracy **** makes my blood boil.  This is rapidly reaching the level of Holocaust deniers.

The saddest and most horrifyingly amusing thing is seeing people react to that article by doing the very thing the article discusses. While there may be certain individuals that are erroneously put into coronavirus death counts, it's painfully clear numbers are being way undercounted overall. 

 

Anyhow, here's the quote of the day from the president on the coronavirus. 

"They're running into death just like soldiers run into bullets, in a true sense," the president continued. "I see that with the doctors and the nurses and so many other people. They go into those hospitals, it's incredible to see. It's a beautiful thing to see."

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4 minutes ago, AnonymousRob said:

Anyhow, here's the quote of the day from the president on the coronavirus. 

"They're running into death just like soldiers run into bullets, in a true sense," the president continued. "I see that with the doctors and the nurses and so many other people. They go into those hospitals, it's incredible to see. It's a beautiful thing to see."

Reminds me of the time he said he'd run in to a school during a shooting.

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11 minutes ago, AnonymousRob said:

The saddest and most horrifyingly amusing thing is seeing people react to that article by doing the very thing the article discusses. While there may be certain individuals that are erroneously put into coronavirus death counts, it's painfully clear numbers are being way undercounted overall. 

 

Anyhow, here's the quote of the day from the president on the coronavirus. 

"They're running into death just like soldiers run into bullets, in a true sense," the president continued. "I see that with the doctors and the nurses and so many other people. They go into those hospitals, it's incredible to see. It's a beautiful thing to see."

The article is exclusively demonizing the right for questioning the numbers in one direction, and if you're referring to me I mentioned in a subsequent post the fact that I believe they are also being undercounted in some areas as well. You can't claim numbers are being undercounted while just poo pooing away examples in the other direction. It's pretty clear both are happening. 

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, shakestreet said:

[...] You have the link. 

Yesterday.

 

Though this is another gem of a quote.

“When you test, you have a case. When you test, you find something is wrong with people. If we didn’t do any testing, we would have very few cases. They [the media] don’t want to write that.”

 

Edited by tonycpsu
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The seamless transition from "this is s overblown" to "okay, it's serious, but I still think the threat is exaggerated" to "both sides are juking the stats, who knows what to believe?" is something to behold.

The projections that so many laughed for being doomsday scenarios were, if anything, on the conservative side, but a handful of anecdotes of possible misclassificaton is enough to outweigh volumes of evidence of confirmed cases and deaths. The scale of unexplained excess deaths dwarfs the evidence in the other direction, to the point that if some mystery cause were killing that many people, it'd be a bigger story than COVID itself.

But one fishy story, and suddenly it's "both sides!@!" The divergence in standards of evidence shows a disregard for the truth that belies the guise of moderation and impartiality. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, tonycpsu said:

The seamless transition from "this is s overblown" to "okay, it's serious, but I still think the threat is exaggerated" to "both sides are juking the stats, who knows what to believe?" is something to behold.

The projections that so many laughed for being doomsday scenarios were, if anything, on the conservative side, but a handful of anecdotes of possible misclassificaton is enough to outweigh volumes of evidence of confirmed cases and deaths. The scale of unexplained excess deaths dwarfs the evidence in the other direction, to the point that if some mystery cause were killing that many people, it'd be a bigger story than COVID itself.

But one fishy story, and suddenly it's "both sides!@!" The divergence in standards of evidence shows a disregard for the truth that belies the guise of moderation and impartiality. 

Or Tony, and hear me out here, different states are reporting differently, and many experts debate whether we are underreporting or overreporting. And often, there’s a political agenda behind it. That’s just the facts.

Reporting deaths at home with no testing done as COVID deaths. Some say this is necessary to know the true impact. Others note that regular cardiac at-home deaths are down, so we shouldn’t count unknown as COVID deaths.

I, personally, can see both sides of this argument. 

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/86127

Edited by tonycpsu
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34 minutes ago, tonycpsu said:

The seamless transition from "this is s overblown" to "okay, it's serious, but I still think the threat is exaggerated" to "both sides are juking the stats, who knows what to believe?" is something to behold.

The projections that so many laughed for being doomsday scenarios were, if anything, on the conservative side, but a handful of anecdotes of possible misclassificaton is enough to outweigh volumes of evidence of confirmed cases and deaths. The scale of unexplained excess deaths dwarfs the evidence in the other direction, to the point that if some mystery cause were killing that many people, it'd be a bigger story than COVID itself.

But one fishy story, and suddenly it's "both sides!@!" The divergence in standards of evidence shows a disregard for the truth that belies the guise of moderation and impartiality. 

For the record, I've never claimed that it was overblown at all. I know you probably weren't directing that at me exclusively, but just wanted to make that point. Also, the "this is overblown" crowd wasn't exclusive to one political party when this started, regardless of what many want to claim.

 

The article I posted mentions a couple different examples ("fishy stories") in that same article, and that's not the only one. Does that mean that deaths are being inflated more or equal to them being under reported, or that this means that it's not a very serious virus? No, but it's okay to acknowledge that it's happening.

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I’m going to show my political naïveté here, but why does the number of COVID deaths become a political debate? Someone enlighten me as to what pushing up or pushing down the number of actual deaths does for one political party.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, meh2 said:

I’m going to show my political naïveté here, but why does the number of COVID deaths become a political debate? Someone enlighten me as to what pushing up or pushing down the number of actual deaths does for one political party.

“Never waste a good crisis.”

The standard thought is that Republican governors are downplaying number of deaths, in an attempt to make it seem as if Trump did ok. “Everything is fine.” All while Democrat governors would be pushing higher death numbers that they can use against Trump. “What a disaster his decisions were!”

There’s many who apparently think just one of these things is happening, lol. Knowing politics and politicians, I think that it’s quite possible both of these things are taking place in an election year, unfortunately. 

Edited by Backdoor Slider

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13 minutes ago, Backdoor Slider said:

All while Democrat governors would be pushing higher death numbers that they can use against Trump. “What a disaster his decisions were!”

If that’s the case then that’s a big part of what I don’t understand. I don’t care what political party you are, if you’re governor and your state has the highest deaths, isn’t that a reflection on your actions? I know this is probably a terrible analogy, but if I were a manager of a department that had poor performance measures, I wouldn’t be looking to make them look even worse to blame it on the CEO. It’s my department that I’m responsible for.

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34 minutes ago, meh2 said:

I’m going to show my political naïveté here, but why does the number of COVID deaths become a political debate? Someone enlighten me as to what pushing up or pushing down the number of actual deaths does for one political party.

Less deaths makes Trump look better. More deaths makes him look like a failed head of state. 

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4 minutes ago, meh2 said:

If that’s the case then that’s a big part of what I don’t understand. I don’t care what political party you are, if you’re governor and your state has the highest deaths, isn’t that a reflection on your actions? I know this is probably a terrible analogy, but if I were a manager of a department that had poor performance measures, I wouldn’t be looking to make them look even worse to blame it on the CEO. It’s my department that I’m responsible for.

You’d think. Not sure what state you’re from, but everything is political and you’re trying to influence the middle. Here in Michigan:

We have idiots going to the capitol fully armed blaming Whitmer for everything. When in all actuality her decisions basically mirrored Ohio’s, who turned out ok. Likely it got her first and spread quicker. 🤷🏽‍♂️
 

Despite that, she’s made some head-scratching decisions. And no matter what they are, some people will defend her to the death and “if you want to blame someone, blame the incompetent Cheeto!” You know the drill.

So people still try to finesse each way in whatever way they believe, and there’s no changing their minds.

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1 hour ago, Backdoor Slider said:

“Never waste a good crisis.”

The standard thought is that Republican governors are downplaying number of deaths, in an attempt to make it seem as if Trump did ok. “Everything is fine.” All while Democrat governors would be pushing higher death numbers that they can use against Trump. “What a disaster his decisions were!”

There’s many who apparently think just one of these things is happening, lol. Knowing politics and politicians, I think that it’s quite possible both of these things are taking place in an election year, unfortunately. 

 

You forgot another element.  Both sides have attended to their number one priority, which is to loot the country of hundreds of billions, probably soon to be over a trillion, on behalf of their donors and the wealthy.  And also to increase authoritarianism.  I don't mean the lockdowns, which I'm fine with.  But stuff like passing legislation to allow the FBI to view your browser history without a warrant.  

Americans also seem to be receiving significantly less aid than individuals in other countries, with significantly more red tape, and of course many will come out of this with crippling medical bills, which will not happen in any other rich country.  Or even some third world countries.  

Again, seems like we're not really going hard to preserve small business.  If anything, this is an opportunity to get them out of the way.  I'm not an expert but this woman raises some good points.  IF Wal-mart is going to be open, what exactly is achieved by making a corner store shut down?  Seems like you just crowd more people into Wal-Mart.  Gee, I wonder who throws more money at politicians, The Waltons or this lady. 

I should say, I have no idea what the accurate death counts and so forth are.  I don't know that it even matters all that much how accurate the count is for political purposes.  If the election comes around and 350,000 are dead vs 280,000 that would be meaningless to me (insert Stalin quote).  I'd just try to understand who did and didn't do a good job.  If people are fudging the death counts one way or another, I think they're kind of wasting their time and credibility.  I'm speaking of people within the parameters of normalcy/sanity.  

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24 minutes ago, GamblorLA said:

 

You forgot another element.  Both sides have attended to their number one priority, which is to loot the country of hundreds of billions, probably soon to be over a trillion, on behalf of their donors and the wealthy.  And also to increase authoritarianism.  I don't mean the lockdowns, which I'm fine with.  But stuff like passing legislation to allow the FBI to view your browser history without a warrant.  

Americans also seem to be receiving significantly less aid than individuals in other countries, with significantly more red tape, and of course many will come out of this with crippling medical bills, which will not happen in any other rich country.  Or even some third world countries.  

Again, seems like we're not really going hard to preserve small business.  If anything, this is an opportunity to get them out of the way.  I'm not an expert but this woman raises some good points.  IF Wal-mart is going to be open, what exactly is achieved by making a corner store shut down?  Seems like you just crowd more people into Wal-Mart.  Gee, I wonder who throws more money at politicians, The Waltons or this lady. 

I should say, I have no idea what the accurate death counts and so forth are.  I don't know that it even matters all that much how accurate the count is for political purposes.  If the election comes around and 350,000 are dead vs 280,000 that would be meaningless to me (insert Stalin quote).  I'd just try to understand who did and didn't do a good job.  If people are fudging the death counts one way or another, I think they're kind of wasting their time and credibility.  I'm speaking of people within the parameters of normalcy/sanity.  

Tin_foil_hat_2.jpg

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18 hours ago, CooL said:

Maybe taking sides is wrong here, because they’re both wrong. As you said, I’m most pissed off by his tactless comments.In March, he suggested that the “‘Rona” was being hyped up in the media and it wasn’t really a big deal. Guess he now doesn’t think it’s a hoax?

He said he’s not going to play for nothing. Well, if the season doesn’t go, he’ll get $300K. But at least he won’t be risking life and death sitting in the bullpen 4 out of 5 days.

Don't think anyone is actually taking sides like you say here. You proposed an idea that its weird to take the sides of millionaires. Where as I find the opposite is probably true. Just about every poster here agrees the way Snell said things was in poor judgement.

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Posted (edited)

Not sure what the tinfoil hat in reference to, but I think most of this is common knowledge. Bailout money has gone to or they are working on getting it for: cruise lines that operate under foreign flags to avoid taxes, airlines, chain restaurants, casinos (!), lobbyists (!!) and many others. IDK how you could be unaware of this, but...

https://www.propublica.org/article/how-the-coronavirus-bailout-repeats-2008s-mistakes-huge-corporate-payoffs-with-little-accountability 

Senate votes to let FBI to seize web history without a warrant:

https://gizmodo.com/heres-who-just-voted-to-let-the-f-b-i-seize-your-searc-1843445032

Canadians have a streamlined process to get $2,000 a month for 4 months if out of work. (I still haven't gotten a cent. Nor has my mom, a retired teacher).

https://www.vicnews.com/news/trudeau-unveils-new-2000-per-month-benefit-to-streamline-covid-19-aid/

Every other rich country and some 3rd world countries provide HC for all. Also common knowledge.  We pay far more, including the taxes they pay. Medical debt is the leading cause of bankruptcy and corona hospitalization costs tens of thousands. I think like 80% of people know this, but...

spacer.png

 

I guess the "conspiracy" is that those who spend billions a year on lobbying, campaign contributions, speaking fees, etc. get a return on investment?

Edited by GamblorLA

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, tonycpsu said:

The seamless transition from "this is s overblown" to "okay, it's serious, but I still think the threat is exaggerated" to "both sides are juking the stats, who knows what to believe?" is something to behold.

The projections that so many laughed for being doomsday scenarios were, if anything, on the conservative side, but a handful of anecdotes of possible misclassificaton is enough to outweigh volumes of evidence of confirmed cases and deaths. The scale of unexplained excess deaths dwarfs the evidence in the other direction, to the point that if some mystery cause were killing that many people, it'd be a bigger story than COVID itself.

But one fishy story, and suddenly it's "both sides!@!" The divergence in standards of evidence shows a disregard for the truth that belies the guise of moderation and impartiality. 

 A lot this from the start was people being skeptical of something new that they didn't fully understand. The way you are painting things in that first sentence I do not like at all. Yes, there was agency in some of it, but not as much as you think.

The idea that people are dying because they are too scared to go the hospitals right now makes some sense.(Or only show up when it's to late) Why they are dying might be COVID, or it could be something else that would have been preventable to they seeked more timely medical care. So overall deaths would be up regardless. This is before any assumption of agenda's being pushed from right or left.

Personally, i'm not informed enough to know if these deaths are like say 90% COVID, 10% other, or 70-30, 60-40 or whatever. Maybe you feel you are, which I would be more then willing to listen to.

You could argue it doesn't matter because it's all a function of the COVID outbreak and collateral damages count. We do know it's a fact a lot of hospitals are cutting hours that are not in an epicenter of it. So less overall care to the population is happening. Presume most is trival checks ups, but not all.

Edited by Slatykamora
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5 hours ago, KCTD25 said:

Yep. A lot of it is politics, on both sides. I have no doubt that numbers are being inflated in some states, and I have no doubt they are being undercounted in some states. 

Politicians and politics, in general, are/is horrible. 

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