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Coronavirus (COVID-19) Baseball Impact

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3 minutes ago, Weekday Warrior said:

Raising Covid19 is a natural response to the players’ $1 billion grievance threat.

I assume the players’ $1 billion calculation is the difference in prorated salaries between the 50 games the league might impose and the max number of possible games before Sep 27 had the league acted in what they say is good faith.

But the March agreement says days on the calendar is just one of multiple factors that go into setting a schedule. Economics is another factor that the owners rely on, but health and safety is another factor that the owners are entitled to invoke.

A $1 Billion dollar grievance threat is extremely heavy handed, so the players brought this on themselves.  If the owners wave off health and safety considerations they’re just strengthening the players’s monetary claim.

It just rings as disingenuous when it's done virtually in concert with Manfred's statement.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, JE7HorseGod said:

It just rings as disingenuous when it's done virtually in concert with Manfred's statement.


The players’ $1 billion dollar claim is disingenuous ... so yeah of course the league is going to position themselves to ratchet that figure down per the criteria in the March agreement

Edited by Weekday Warrior

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44 minutes ago, JE7HorseGod said:

I think the issue is not whether it exists or not, but the timing with which they're trying to leverage it.

The players caught the virus.  They may well have not followed health guidelines if they did.  So it seems more of a problem the players started.  I mean the owners didn't give them the virus.  We are NOT going that conspiracy route.

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11 minutes ago, Weekday Warrior said:


The players’ $1 billion dollar claim is disingenuous ... so yeah of course the league is going to position themselves to ratchet that figure down per the criteria in the March agreement

They had avenues to disparage the grievance and its amount on its merit without suddenly sounding this alarm.

If we keep going down this road everyone involved in the sport is going to lose long term.

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14 minutes ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

The players caught the virus.  They may well have not followed health guidelines if they did.  So it seems more of a problem the players started.  I mean the owners didn't give them the virus.  We are NOT going that conspiracy route.

That's not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is, bringing this up publicly yesterday is not a genuine health concern but a jaded negotiation tactic.

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17 minutes ago, JE7HorseGod said:

That's not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is, bringing this up publicly yesterday is not a genuine health concern but a jaded negotiation tactic.

Why?  I don't see it that way.  If it is a tactic it isn't "jaded" but a legitimate fact and a good reason for the owners' pov.  A pov you always put down no matter what the owners do.  You never give them the benefit of the doubt ever but always 200% give the players that.  The world isn't that black and white.  There are shades of gray.

And why shouldn't the fact that these players have tested positive not be made public?  The other three major sports have made their positive tests results public.  Should baseball hide their results under a rock?

Some baseball players having already tested positive does mean something.  And if some or all of these players caught the virus like the Cowboys players did from NOT following health guidelines but out socializing in ways they shouldn't then it is 100% on the players and a very legit concern for the owners that some of their players are running amok.  So why shouldn't it be a point in their favor.  They would be stupid to hide those results.

Also something can be BOTH a genuine health concern and be a point in your side's argument.  It isn't one or the other.  And the owners sure as hell want their team's players to be healthy BOTH at a human level and at a business level.

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8 minutes ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

Why?  I don't see it that way.  If it is a tactic it isn't "jaded" but a legitimate fact and a good reason for the owners' pov.  A pov you always put down no matter what the owners do.  You never give them the benefit of the doubt ever but always 200% give the players that.  The world isn't that black and white.  There are shades of gray.

And why shouldn't the fact that these players have tested positive not be made public?  The other three major sports have made their positive tests results public.  Should baseball hide their results under a rock?

Some baseball players having already tested positive does mean something.  And if some or all of these players caught the virus like the Cowboys players did from NOT following health guidelines but out socializing in ways they shouldn't then it is 100% on the players and a very legit concern for the owners that some of their players are running amok.  So why shouldn't it be a point in their favor.  They would be stupid to hide those results.

Also something can be BOTH a genuine health concern and be a point in your side's argument.  It isn't one or the other.  And the owners sure as hell want their team's players to be healthy BOTH at a human level and at a business level.

Because of the timing.

Manfred's statement on "not being 100%" that the baseball season would be played in response to the players threatening a grievance came at 4:45 PM yesterday.

Lemeire's tweet on the MLB obtaining a letter from the AP came at 7:45 yesterday.

The initial agreement of player safety issued by the owners was on May 16th.  Since then there's nary been a public comment on infection rate and health on behalf of the owners.

Are we to believe these things are coincidental?  That they couldn't have obtained this letter at any other time in the past few days and months and addressed this public health concern earlier?

We basically went three weeks without even mentioning this issue and then three hours after Manfred's statement this is released.

If you're not connecting the dots here I don't know what to tell you.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, JE7HorseGod said:

Because of the timing.

Manfred's statement on "not being 100%" that the baseball season would be played in response to the players threatening a grievance came at 4:45 PM yesterday.

Lemeire's tweet on the MLB obtaining a letter from the AP came at 7:45 yesterday.

The initial agreement of player safety issued by the owners was on May 16th.  Since then there's nary been a public comment on infection rate and health on behalf of the owners.

Are we to believe these things are coincidental?  That they couldn't have obtained this letter at any other time in the past few days and months and addressed this public health concern earlier?

We basically went three weeks without even mentioning this issue and then three hours after Manfred's statement this is released.

If you're not connecting the dots here I don't know what to tell you.

Your not "telling" me anything.  You just aren't showing me any facts to your conspiracy theory.  Sure it may not be "coincidence" but you haven't proved it isn't either.  And who cares one way or the other about the timing.  Some players have tested positive.  period.  That is all that matters in the end.  if those tests were used to prove a point and thereby show the worry from the owners or the results just came out that day as a coincidence it doesn't matter either way.  The fact that some  players are testing positive does.

Again, if the owners prove a point with hard data it isn't a bad thing in the least.  It is a legit thing to do.  Not some  bad thing.  They aren't sitting in their back rooms rubbing their hands together at the covid-19 test results like Mr Burns would do while mumbling "Excellent, excellent."  They aren't cartoons or even evil people.  Simply rich.  Not my kind of folks personally but I don't hate them either.

Edited by The Big Bat Theory
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5 hours ago, Brooklyn Dude said:

 

I would think if the Corona virus is not preventing teams from re-opening, they would lose any grievance.  What good reason could they use as a defense for cancelling the season.  Yesterday,  MLB started saying there are players that have come down with the virus.  This appears to be some legal posturing for any grievance.  Everything was going fine health wise when Manfred said there would 100% be a season.

Is Manfred giving these people the virus? Someone should stop him.

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Just now, The Big Bat Theory said:

Your not "telling" me anything.  You just aren't showing me any facts to your conspiracy theory.  Sure it may not be "coincidence" but you haven't proved it isn't either.  And who cares one way or the other about the timing.  Some players have tested positive.  period.  That is all that matters in the end.  if those tests were used to prove a point and thereby show the worry from the owners or the results just came out that day as a coincidence it doesn't matter either way.  The fact that some  players are testing positive does.

Again, if the owners prove a point with hard data it isn't a bad thing in the least.  It is a legit thing to do.  Not some  bad thing.  They aren't sitting in their back rooms rubbing their hands together at the covid-19 test results like Mr Burns would do while mumbling "Excellent, excellent."  They aren't cartoons or even evil people.  Simply rich.

LOL@Mr. Burns.

I agree that disclosure itself is not a problem.  We're going to have to agree to disagree on the owners' motives for disclosing it yesterday.  I don't think they're "evil" so much as I think their primary motivation is to force a 50 game schedule and eliminate the player grievance because they're approaching this as a hardballed labor negotiation, because that's the way they've been conducting themselves lo these past few months.

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Sorry but the players’ high and mightyism collapsed as soon as their lawyer said that they’d sue for a billion dollars the instant the league announced a schedule.

That isn’t just a small footnote to the whole “tell us when, tell is where, we’re ready” slogan, it is a glaring omission.

Maybee half a billion to 3/4 billion would be a reasonable pie in the sky to shoot for if they thought they could convince an arbitrator to have days on the calendar almost totally supersede economic and health factors, but a billion is over the top.

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Just now, Weekday Warrior said:

Sorry but the players’ high and mightyism collapsed as soon as their lawyer said that they’d sue for a billion dollars the instant the league announced a schedule.

That isn’t just a small footnote to the whole “tell us when, tell is where, we’re ready” slogan, it is a glaring omission.

Maybee half a billion to 3/4 billion would be a reasonable pie in the sky to shoot for if they thought they could convince an arbitrator to have days on the calendar almost totally supersede economic and health factors, but a billion is over the top.

That's an argument I at least respect.

There's no doubt the amount is punitive.  I won't argue that.  I'd say the lack of financial transparency, the trial balloon on rev share, and both sides unwilling to budge from their salary demands have led us here to this point where each additional swing is going to lead us further away from a functional work environment.

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9 minutes ago, JE7HorseGod said:

LOL@Mr. Burns.

I agree that disclosure itself is not a problem.  We're going to have to agree to disagree on the owners' motives for disclosing it yesterday.  I don't think they're "evil" so much as I think their primary motivation is to force a 50 game schedule and eliminate the player grievance because they're approaching this as a hardballed labor negotiation, because that's the way they've been conducting themselves lo these past few months.

But i said the motives in the end do not matter.  Who cares if their motives were business related.  The facts are the facts I said and if those facts (positive test results) help the owners prove their point there isn't anything wrong about that.  There is nothing wrong with 50 games helping them or 80 some games helping the players.  They should all just do a King Solomon impression and split the baby down the middle but a billion dollar law suit is not helping the situation far more than releasing hard date on ball players perhaps behaving badly (or not - we don't have the details on who and what they were doing) and catching the virus.

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Just now, The Big Bat Theory said:

But i said the motives in the end do not matter.  Who cares if their motives were business related.

That's your opinion, and I do.

Because, big picture, I think it's better for everyone if your employer treats your health legitimately and not a point to be scored in an attempt to renegotiate your contract.

I don't want to work for someone like that and I don't think these players do either.

I'd like to see baseball get their act together and not have as much mistrust between each other and I think this was dirty pool and will be interpreted by the players as such.

I think WeekendWarrior is right, it wasn't an unsolicited tactic.  But I also think that both setting a punitive target for the grievance and releasing this letter in the manner that they did is getting us further away from that.

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28 minutes ago, itslarry said:

Is Manfred giving these people the virus? Someone should stop him.

 Who is saying that ????

 

Manfred is the one saying players are coming down with the virus and now preventing the MLB from starting the season as per their agreement in March. I think he is positioning the owners for a grievance he knows will be filed if the owners cancel the season without good cause.  I'm sure everybody knew there would be some isolated cases of players getting the virus once the season begins.  

 

Now if it becomes a widespread infection among the players the owners will have good cause to cancel the season. 

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The players are just pawns they should just shut up and go out and swing their bats and throw their pitches already. Especially when the owners have every bit of the leverage. During a nationwide pandemic and the players are crying for additional millions when they play just a kids game and not one bit an essential business, just ungrateful pos’s while there are millions unemployed.

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11 minutes ago, sjs1890 said:

The players are just pawns they should just shut up and go out and swing their bats and throw their pitches already. Especially when the owners have every bit of the leverage. During a nationwide pandemic and the players are crying for additional millions when they play just a kids game and not one bit an essential business, just ungrateful pos’s while there are millions unemployed.

Keep up the hope 

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3 hours ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

But now it looks like covid-19 has re-entered the whole scene again so it may well prevent a season.

The owners can point to it but it was the players getting it to start with.  The virus is a real player in these negotiations; not a made-up fantasy.

Damn right.

IMO This Covid was the death for us having a MLB season from the beginning. 

34 minutes ago, JE7HorseGod said:

That's your opinion, and I do.

Because, big picture, I think it's better for everyone if your employer treats your health legitimately and not a point to be scored in an attempt to renegotiate your contract.

I don't want to work for someone like that and I don't think these players do either.

I'd like to see baseball get their act together and not have as much mistrust between each other and I think this was dirty pool and will be interpreted by the players as such.

I think WeekendWarrior is right, it wasn't an unsolicited tactic.  But I also think that both setting a punitive target for the grievance and releasing this letter in the manner that they did is getting us further away from that.

All in all at the end it really doesn’t matter who we think is a fault we are not going to see MLB baseball this season. 
 

The biggest picture these players ain’t walking away from baseball...The way you worded do you really think any player is going to walk away over this? 

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1 minute ago, shakestreet said:

The way you worded do you really think any player is going to walk away over this? 

I think it's really more a long term viability issue.

The league needs a better financial model in order to be competitive for future talent and future fans.  Continued labor disputes because of an atmosphere of mistrust may lead to some short term gains but I see nothing but problems ahead if they don't get this ironed out.

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Anyway Spring training needs to happen 

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The more they wait the less a chance of a season there is

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1 hour ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

But i said the motives in the end do not matter.  Who cares if their motives were business related.  The facts are the facts I said and if those facts (positive test results) help the owners prove their point there isn't anything wrong about that.  There is nothing wrong with 50 games helping them or 80 some games helping the players.  They should all just do a King Solomon impression and split the baby down the middle but a billion dollar law suit is not helping the situation far more than releasing hard date on ball players perhaps behaving badly (or not - we don't have the details on who and what they were doing) and catching the virus.

Positive test results might backfire on the owners. Now the risk is real and the players will argue harder for full pro-rata.  Speaking on the positive test results, were we in belief that no one from MLB is going to test positive with the increase in testing. There is going to be more, that doesn't mean they need to shut down.

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32 minutes ago, shakestreet said:

Baseball is not changing owners own teams players play ball. Owners pay players to play ball. Young boys inspire to become major league ball players. That model has been around you over a century. 

My point is that this animosity leading to labor friction is not good.  It's true of any sport but this is leading to what could be a sequence of potentially devastating labor stoppage(s).

It may not change the opinion of people who have been following baseball for decades but it definitely could have a more significant impact for younger people who have no such nostalgia.

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[ Posts removed.  This thread needs to stay focused on MLB and the prospects of the season resuming, not arguing about how dangerous COVID is.  There's another thread if you want to have those arguments. ]

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