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Jordan vs LeBron - whos has the better defense?

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14 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

Congrats on being a professional message board lebron vs jordan debater/plagiarizer. Hope it pays well!

 

I rather not put effort in a debate for no money where everyone has made up their mind.  Sounds like something for you though.

 

(not to mention, the mods will delete it)

Then why even bother to comment in the first place. Don't start something you can't finish my friend.  You criticize people who picked MJ over LBJ yet your arguments are crap. You sure like to insult people when they pick MJ, but have yet to show why LBJ is better than him. You are just being defensive. You need to check yourself first before checking others.

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On 10/14/2020 at 2:18 AM, Trade Monster said:

You want facts.

Here you go.

 

It’s really not even close?

 

HERE IT IS:

Jordan vs James

Updated after LeBron’s 14th season. Michael Jordan has:
•3 more rings
•3 more final mvps
•1 more DPOY
•1 more season MVP
•9 more scoring titles
•3 more steals leader
•3 more all defensive team selections
•4000 more points / bron moved past him in playoff points, but it took him longer.
•800 more steals
•Beat 20 50+ win teams in the playoffs (Lebron only defeated 10)
•Jordan never averaged less than 40% Field Goal in the finals
Lebron did it twice
•6/6 (never allowed a game 7)
•Lebron had much more offensive help, example:
  Jordan never had a teammate average more than 22 points in the finals.. In fact, Mj is Only player in NBA history to lead a team to the championship with only one teammate averaging double figures in scoring
* In the Bulls’ 1997 playoff run, Scottie Pippen averaged 19 points per game on 42% shooting. All other teammates of Jordan averaged under 8 points per game
Kyrie averaged over 28 and DWade averaged more than 26
•MJ never ever had a finals meltdown like Lebron in 2011 against the Mavs
•MJ had more points in the playoffs in less games..
MJ accomplished all of this in 13 seasons
Lebron after his 14th season, is still chasing the “ghost” (GOAT) that played in Chicago”
•Michael Jordan in the playoffs has put up atleast 40ppg, 5rpg, 5apg in 6 different playoff series. Along with an average of about 55% shooting, 3spg and 2bpg.
(86 vs bos, 89 vs cavs, 90 vs philly, 92 vs Miami, 93 vs Phoenix, 88 vs cavs) Jordan won every one of those matchups except for the 1986 matchup vs the celtics.
•Jordan in 88-89 averaged 32ppg, 8apg, 8rpg, 3spg off 54% shooting. LeBron has never even came close to this stat line.
•in 87 thru 92, MJ averaged 5 straight seasons of atleast 51% FG shooting. LeBron has never done this.
•the lowest FT% MJ ever shot in a season was 78%. Lebrons highest in a season ever is 78%.
•MJ has a higher playoff FG% of 48.7% to Lebrons 48.3%
•MJ has a higher playoff player efficiency rating of 28.6 to Lebrons 27.3.
•MJ shoots a higher playoff 3 point percentage of 33.2% to Lebrons 32.9%
•LeBron James has scored 30 points, 416 times in 1,117 games.
Michael Jordan did it 562 times in 1,072 games.
Jordan won 6 championships without losing a final in 1,072 games and LeBron in 1,117 games has lost 5 times and has only won 3 times (updated 2018)
•MJ also shocked the league by being the first (and only) player to have 100 blocks and 200 steals in the same season, then turned around and did it again the next year..
•Mj also has more career blocks (893) than Lebron James (853) despite playing in 22 LESS career games and being the smaller guy.
Also, MJ averaged 1.6 blocks per game in the 1987-88 season which is absolutely bonkers for a 6’6″ shooting guard.
Seriously this list can keep going. This isn’t even a debate. Mj is the GOAT.
MIchael Jordan:
•NBA record 5 playoffs series’ averaging atleast 40ppg
•Only player in history to lead league in scoring and win DPOY
•Highest scoring average, points per game, in any championship series:
41.0 vs. Phoenix Suns, 1993 NBA Finals
•Only rookie in NBA history to lead his team in four statistics (1984–85)
•Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring, win Most Valuable Player, and Defensive Player of the Year in the same season (1987–88)
•Only player in history to average at least 30pts 6reb 5assists And 2 steals per game AND HE DID IT 7 TIMES.
•Only player in NBA history to win Rookie of the Year (1984–85), Defensive Player of the Year (1987–88), NBA MVP (1987–88, 1990–91, 1991–92, 1995–96, 1997–98), All-Star MVP (1988, 1996, 1998), and Finals MVP (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998)
•Only player in NBA history to lead the league in scoring and win the NBA championship MORE THAN ONCE in the same season
* He did this SIX TIMES!! (1990–91, 1991–92, 1992–93, 1995–96, 1996–97, 1997–98)
•One of two players in NBA history to score 3,000 points in a season: 3,041 points scored in 82 games played (37.1 ppg) (1986–87)
* Wilt Chamberlain is the only other player to achieve this.
•MJ is also the only player in NBA history to score over 40 points at age 40, and he did it twice!
•In 1988, MJ earned: Dunk Champ, All Star Game MVP, NBA Scoring Title, League MVP and Defensive Player of the Year.
Michael in only ELEVEN complete seasons with the Bulls:
-10 scoring titles,
-Won Defensive Player of the Year,
-9 times all defensive team,
-9time All NBA,
-5 league MVPs
-6 finals MVPs

All 11 seasons. Mj has done in 11 seasons things Lebron hasn’t done and won’t do in his whole career…

Remind me again...who is the GOAT?

 

That's right, MJ.

 

I will admit that LBJ is a great player. But he is a freak of a specimen. Someone of his physique and talent should be putting up numbers like he does.

 

On the other hand MJ was a SG. A lot smaller than LBJ. If LBJ was the size of MJ he wouldn't have scratch the surface of what he has now. Even Kobe is more of a goat than LBJ.

 

Jordan didn't have to contend with a generation behind him - go look at the drafts from '86-'95; there was very little top-end talent entering the league and a good number of 'em were on the Bulls.  Jordan also played in a watered-down league as the NBA expanded from 23 teams to 30, and the West was the deeper conference back then.
So basically when Jordan was winding down his prime, all his competition was ALSO winding down theirs, and most were even older than he was. LeBron, meanwhile, has had to play his last two Finals against TWO league MVPs in their prime that partnered up while his "superstar" teammates are both guys who have won a total of zero playoff games without him.
Lebron faced five 59+ win teams in the eastern conference during finals runs, MJ faced three 59+ win teams during his finals runs.
Jordan couldn't, and didn't win without Pippen. Win-loss record without pippen 1985: 39-47 1986: 30-55 1987: 40-45. He won one solitary playoff game without him, 1.
Playoff win percentage without an all-star LeBron: 58% MJ without Pippen: 10%
Lebron at 22 years of age won 66 games, and dragged Ilgauskas, Varejao, Delonte West, Mo Williams to the 2007 finals, and were defeated by a Spurs Dynasty. 
Seasons over .500 Lebron 14-3 MJ 10-5
1st round record Lebron 13-0 MJ 9-3
2nd round record Lebron 10-3 MJ 8-2
Conference record Lebron 9-1 MJ 6-2
Categories in the finals Lebron leads all: Points Per Game Rebounds Per Game Assists Per Game Steals Per Game Blocks Per Game. MJ leads Points Per Game Pippen leads every other category. 
All NBA Selections Lebron total selected 15 Season's played 16. MJ total selected 11 season's played 15.
Lebron his last 3 finals losses 34.4 PPG 11.6 RPG 9.5 APG 51.4 FG%
MJ his last 3 finals wins 31.1 PPG 5.6 RPG 4.2 APG 45.4 FG%
2009 Cavs 66 wins  Ilgauskas, Varejao, Delonte West, Mo Williams Coach: Mike Brown
1996 Bulls 72 wins Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, Kerr Coach: Phil Jackson
Lebron has had 7 different coaches, non of which have made a conference final without him
Number of Hall of Famers faced Lebron 25 MJ 8
MJ won a ring in 96 averaging 27 PPG on a 43% FG
Kobe won a ring in 2010 averaging 28 PPG on a 40% FG
Kawhi won a ring in 2019 averaging 28 PPG on a 43% FG
Lebron lost in 2017 averaging 34 PPG on a 56% FG
 

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Never ending debate....

I need to ask: what is the ultimate goal in every sport?

In my opinion it is to win it all.

For me, MJ vs LBJ debate is decided by that criteria.

You can always find stats that favours one or another. But how you perform when the stakes are the highest decides greatness. 

NBA finals in 2011and 2014 are the reason why MJ is GOAT in my books.

On the side note, LBJ career reminds me a lot of Kareem's career

 

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1 hour ago, Gile Pile said:

Never ending debate....

I need to ask: what is the ultimate goal in every sport?

In my opinion it is to win it all.

For me, MJ vs LBJ debate is decided by that criteria.

You can always find stats that favours one or another. But how you perform when the stakes are the highest decides greatness. 

NBA finals in 2011and 2014 are the reason why MJ is GOAT in my books.

On the side note, LBJ career reminds me a lot of Kareem's career

 

If your criteria is to win it all, Bill Russell is the GOAT by far. Not only won but also dominated during his time. 

 

It's a never ending debate. Let's just put the debate to rest and enjoy LeBron while we have him. Love him or hate him, GOAT or not, he's one of the best players ever and a top player of all time.

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On 10/17/2020 at 10:43 AM, Gile Pile said:

Never ending debate....

I need to ask: what is the ultimate goal in every sport?

In my opinion it is to win it all.

For me, MJ vs LBJ debate is decided by that criteria.

You can always find stats that favours one or another. But how you perform when the stakes are the highest decides greatness. 

NBA finals in 2011and 2014 are the reason why MJ is GOAT in my books.

On the side note, LBJ career reminds me a lot of Kareem's career

 

 

Aren't you the guy who said in this thread that every time Lebron won the refs fixed it for him. 

Easily disregard anything this guy has to say on Lebron. Great call on the Lakers this year btw.

 

 

Edited by brockpapersizer

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On 3/31/2020 at 8:48 AM, Gile Pile said:

You can't convince me the league wasn't instructing the refs to give Lebron/ The Heat/the Cavs every call to get them into the finals year after year.

 

Feel free to look through my post history and see if I ever wrote anything as emotionally biased nons nonsenwe as this about Lebron/MJ. You won't. 

 

Trash

 

Edited by brockpapersizer

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Who played the best individual game in NBA history? Did LeBron James play the 3 greatest games in a row to end the 2016 NBA Finals? Here's a deep dive into LeBron's Game 5, Game 6 and Game 7 against the 73-win Golden State Warriors that drove Cleveland's 3-1 comeback. Other great 3-game stretches from a playoff series: -Elgin Baylor, 1961: Final 3 games of WCF averaged 41.7 ppg 17.7 rpg but didn't shoot well (49.5% TS) -Wilt, 1967: G3-G5 ECF: 20-41-9, 20-22-10, and then 29-36-13 (54.4% TS) -Kareem 1977, G4-G6 WCSF: 43 ppg 18.7 rpg 3 apg (65% TS) -Bird 1986: G1-G3 Finals averaged 25.7 ppg 10.3 rpg 10.3 apg 4.0 steals 0.7 blks (55% TS) -Magic 1987: G1-G3 Finals averaged 27.7 ppg 14 apg 8 rpb 2 steals (63% TS) -Jordan 1991: G1-G3 Finals averaged 32.7 ppg 11.3 apg 8.0 rpg 3 stl 1 bpg (62.5% TS) -Jordan 1993 :G3-G5 Finals averaged 46.7 ppg 8 rpg 5.7 apg (56.5% TS) -Hakeem 1995: G1-G3 WCF: 37 ppg 11.7 rpg 4.7 apg 4.0 blocks (60% TS) -Shaq, 2000: G1-G3 of 2000 Finals averaged 38.7 ppg 18.7 rpg 3.0 apg (64% TS) -Duncan, 2003: G1-G3 WCF: 35.3 ppg 18.0 rpg 6.0 apg 3.3 blocks (66% TS) -Wade, 2006: G3-G5 Finals averaged 40.3 ppg 7.7 rpg 3.0 apg 61% TS) -Kobe 2010: G4-G6 WCF: 35 ppg 8 rpg 7 apg (64% TS) -Also note that Jerry West in 1965 averaged 46.3 ppg in the series against the Baltimore Bullets (7 apg, 6 rpg), 55% TS

Edited by Auction>Snake

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2 hours ago, Auction>Snake said:

 

 

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Imagine if Lebron only had that kind of opponents as MJ had. How many championships he would've won.

 

LeBron has definitely had the tougher road in the Finals, there's no debating that. Jordan's first three championships are pretty weak actually. Lakers in 91 had no Kareem, lost their key role players from the Showtime Era, and James Worthy was hurt. They had no chance. 92 Blazers were pretty much a one man band with Clyde Drexler. Are we really giving MJ that much credit for beating Drexler? 93 Suns were the best team of these 3 IMO, Barkley was great that year and they had some nice players around Barkley. Still not a great team and the Bulls were clearly better. But 6/6 is 6/6, MJ never lost and always beat the teams he was supposed to beat. 2011 Bron will always be a big stain on his resume. 

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15 hours ago, Auction>Snake said:

 

 

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Imagine if Lebron only had that kind of opponents as MJ had. How many championships he would've won.

 

Lmao I see Bruce bowen , 38 year old jkidd, Tyson chandler , Andrew bogut on the lebron side yet I don’t see the likes of terry porter , Kevin Johnson , Jeff hornacek , hershey Hawkins, and detlef schrempf on the Jordan side.

you do realize during lebron’s 8 year stretch of dominating the east , he only had to deal with the Derrick rose led bulls, Paul George lead pacers , and the Demar derozan raptors. 
 

over a 8 year span that was all he had to deal with , asides from the 2012 matchup against boston.

prime Jordan > prime lebron , it’s not even a debate. 
 

Lebron is more comparable to Kareem than he is to Jordan

 

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2 hours ago, Simsanityy179 said:

Lmao I see Bruce bowen , 38 year old jkidd, Tyson chandler , Andrew bogut on the lebron side yet I don’t see the likes of terry porter , Kevin Johnson , Jeff hornacek , hershey Hawkins, and detlef schrempf on the Jordan side.

you do realize during lebron’s 8 year stretch of dominating the east , he only had to deal with the Derrick rose led bulls, Paul George lead pacers , and the Demar derozan raptors. 
 

over a 8 year span that was all he had to deal with , asides from the 2012 matchup against boston.

prime Jordan > prime lebron , it’s not even a debate. 
 

Lebron is more comparable to Kareem than he is to Jordan

 

 

Lebron played against 2 dynasties. Outside of Utah, and I'd argue that the 97-98 Jazz weren't the best version of the Stockton/Malone era Jazz, the Bulls played mostly against one year wonders. No all time great teams. 

Although the East was more dynamic during the 90's, they're really aren't any all time great teams, besides maybe the early 90's Knicks. In the 6 conf finals appearances, the Bulls a different team each time. 

Jordan is my guy, but we have to be able to call a spade a spade. The competition wasn't the same. Jordan's #1 "rival" matchup at the 2 in the playoffs was arguably 6'3 John Starks. 

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5 hours ago, Simsanityy179 said:

Lmao I see Bruce bowen , 38 year old jkidd, Tyson chandler , Andrew bogut on the lebron side yet I don’t see the likes of terry porter , Kevin Johnson , Jeff hornacek , hershey Hawkins, and detlef schrempf on the Jordan side.

you do realize during lebron’s 8 year stretch of dominating the east , he only had to deal with the Derrick rose led bulls, Paul George lead pacers , and the Demar derozan raptors. 
 

over a 8 year span that was all he had to deal with , asides from the 2012 matchup against boston.

prime Jordan > prime lebron , it’s not even a debate. 
 

Lebron is more comparable to Kareem than he is to Jordan

 

Lebron faced five 59+ win teams in the eastern conference during finals runs, MJ faced three 59+ win teams during his finals runs.
Jordan couldn't, and didn't win without Pippen. Win-loss record without pippen 1985: 39-47 1986: 30-55 1987: 40-45. He won one solitary playoff game without him, 1.
Playoff win percentage without an all-star LeBron: 58% MJ without Pippen: 10%

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21 hours ago, Auction>Snake said:

Lebron faced five 59+ win teams in the eastern conference during finals runs, MJ faced three 59+ win teams during his finals runs.
Jordan couldn't, and didn't win without Pippen. Win-loss record without pippen 1985: 39-47 1986: 30-55 1987: 40-45. He won one solitary playoff game without him, 1.
Playoff win percentage without an all-star LeBron: 58% MJ without Pippen: 10%

Yeah you’re spreading fake facts , lebron only played 3 teams with 59+ wins in his finals run out east

2011- bulls 62 wins

2015- hawks 60 wins

2018- raptors 59 wins

Those teams are not contenders , besides the bulls.

The  “ Jordan can’t win without pippen “ argument doesn’t help his cause , no player in history let alone a player that hasn’t entered there prime has ever won a championship without another star or elite supporting cast/coach. Jordan had neither in the late 80s. 
The NBA has changed , the rules have made it easier for elite guards/wings to dominate the game. Back in the 80s there were two 7 footers in the paint waiting to beat on Jordan as he drives to the paint. In the current era you just have to beat one man and the paint is open due to the power forwards becoming smaller and the spacing on the court with shooting big men.

this makes it easier for one of the best wings of all time to dominate average teams and win a few rounds. 
 

at the end of the day , to be the GOAT you got to be the best in your sport by a margin , and you have to have a solid case against every other player. Lebron has blemishes on his career , something Jordan never had once he got pippen.

To be honest Lebron’s failure against the Mavericks have ended the goat discussion and it’s as simple as that. It would be disrespectful to the game of basketball if that’s our goat.

 

 

Edited by Simsanityy179
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On 10/21/2020 at 12:25 AM, tremixt said:

 

Lebron played against 2 dynasties. Outside of Utah, and I'd argue that the 97-98 Jazz weren't the best version of the Stockton/Malone era Jazz, the Bulls played mostly against one year wonders. No all time great teams. 

Although the East was more dynamic during the 90's, they're really aren't any all time great teams, besides maybe the early 90's Knicks. In the 6 conf finals appearances, the Bulls a different team each time. 

Jordan is my guy, but we have to be able to call a spade a spade. The competition wasn't the same. Jordan's #1 "rival" matchup at the 2 in the playoffs was arguably 6'3 John Starks. 

I agree that lebron has played against 2 of the greatest teams of all time ..... but he lost to both of them so how is he the goat ?

the SG competition was weak but that’s simply due to the fact that Jordan was ahead of his time. Think about the evolution of the game. When lebron James was growing up he was able to watch videos and film on the greats that came before him and took bits and pieces of all there game. Michael Jordan on the other hand created a whole new style of play. He didn’t have YouTube to study film on players with his size or skill set because the game hasn’t even evolved to that point yet. The big men was still the recipe for championships at that point , he created his own way. 

With that being said , the SG position was always the weakest position until Jordan changed that and taught the next generation how to dominate basketball as a scoring guard/wing. That’s the reason why there wasn’t a lot of good shooting guards in his era because nobody knew how to dominate at that position until they learnt from Jordan 

this is also why I give respect to the  players of the 60s, they played a different game and don’t have all the knowledge that we do today on the game of basketball

Edited by Simsanityy179

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"Jordan couldn't, and didn't win without Pippen" argument can be interpreted like this:

Jordan couldn't, and didn't lose in the  finals with Pippen. 

LeBron lost finals with Irving and Love.

LeBron lost finals with  Wade and Bosh.

 

Jordan won 3 championships in the row, twice.

LeBron won 2 championships in the row, once.

 

LeBron is really good at getting his team to the finals.  He is just not  at Jordan's level at winning in the finals.

 

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8 hours ago, Gile Pile said:

"Jordan couldn't, and didn't win without Pippen" argument can be interpreted like this:

Jordan couldn't, and didn't lose in the  finals with Pippen. 

LeBron lost finals with Irving and Love.

LeBron lost finals with  Wade and Bosh.

 

Jordan won 3 championships in the row, twice.

LeBron won 2 championships in the row, once.

 

LeBron is really good at getting his team to the finals.  He is just not  at Jordan's level at winning in the finals.

 

 

I thought you said the refs got him to the finals every time. So you’re contradicting yourself once again.

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13 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

So you’re contradicting yourself once again.

You sound like my wife. 

 

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On 10/20/2020 at 6:13 AM, RedRaider27 said:

LeBron has definitely had the tougher road in the Finals, there's no debating that. Jordan's first three championships are pretty weak actually. Lakers in 91 had no Kareem, lost their key role players from the Showtime Era, and James Worthy was hurt. They had no chance. 92 Blazers were pretty much a one man band with Clyde Drexler. Are we really giving MJ that much credit for beating Drexler? 93 Suns were the best team of these 3 IMO, Barkley was great that year and they had some nice players around Barkley. Still not a great team and the Bulls were clearly better. But 6/6 is 6/6, MJ never lost and always beat the teams he was supposed to beat. 2011 Bron will always be a big stain on his resume. 

Instead MJ instead of Lebron in that Mavs series and at worst it’s 4-1 heat. Very possibly a sweep. Just sayin.

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23 hours ago, Pirate said:

Instead MJ instead of Lebron in that Mavs series and at worst it’s 4-1 heat. Very possibly a sweep. Just sayin.

Possibly so. I’m not arguing against that. MJ always took care of business in the Finals. 2011 is definitely a huge stain on Bron’s resume like I said earlier. Had he won that Finals I think he would be considered the greatest ever by now. He would have 5 rings, would’ve went back to back to back with the Heat, plus all the individual accolades he has. Just my opinion. I have Jordan 1, Bron 2, but Bron could still catch MJ.

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54 minutes ago, RedRaider27 said:

Possibly so. I’m not arguing against that. MJ always took care of business in the Finals. 2011 is definitely a huge stain on Bron’s resume like I said earlier. Had he won that Finals I think he would be considered the greatest ever by now. He would have 5 rings, would’ve went back to back to back with the Heat, plus all the individual accolades he has. Just my opinion. I have Jordan 1, Bron 2, but Bron could still catch MJ.

The “ lebron has better numbers “ argument is weak, usually only used by people who are bad at math.

If Jordan didn’t retire 3 times , he would be the all time points leader , all time steals leader , top 10 in assists , and first in blocks for guards.

in 12 years (excluding the year he broke his foot) with the bulls , Jordan had 29, 000 points

 

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40 minutes ago, Simsanityy179 said:

The “ lebron has better numbers “ argument is weak, usually only used by people who are bad at math.

If Jordan didn’t retire 3 times , he would be the all time points leader , all time steals leader , top 10 in assists , and first in blocks for guards.

in 12 years (excluding the year he broke his foot) with the bulls , Jordan had 29, 000 points

 

True. That’s why I basically always on go on average. Additionally 1st round was best of 5 back in the day.

Edited by Pirate
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