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The 7th Beatles

2020 Owner / Player Negotiations

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10 minutes ago, sjs1890 said:

Lol I thought Trout, Scherzer, Harper, mlbpa etc kept saying “when and where”. Now 60 games is too short the players continue to make themselves look bad.

It wasn’t “when and where”, it was “when and where and as long as we can file a grievance for more money.”

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1 minute ago, WahooManiac said:

Ok.  Now im pissed at everybody.  Owners still have a lot to answer for, but im ok with the MLB Playa Haters Ball now as well.  

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Stark mentioned yesterday they could counter with 66 games, which I'd consider more equitable than 60. 

I'm holding off judgement here because things came fast and furious yesterday, but if that doesn't happen here soon, or they go overboard in the counter I'm inclined to agree.

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11 minutes ago, JE7HorseGod said:

Stark mentioned yesterday they could counter with 66 games, which I'd consider more equitable than 60. 

I'm holding off judgement here because things came fast and furious yesterday, but if that doesn't happen here soon, or they go overboard in the counter I'm inclined to agree.

Stark did make a good case for the 66 game schedule, just afraid another counter is gonna just piss off the owners and be back to square one.

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24 minutes ago, JE7HorseGod said:

Stark mentioned yesterday they could counter with 66 games, which I'd consider more equitable than 60. 

I'm holding off judgement here because things came fast and furious yesterday, but if that doesn't happen here soon, or they go overboard in the counter I'm inclined to agree.

I get ya,  but at this point 6 games is close enough.  The juice isn't worth the stretch,  friggin play ball. 

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14 minutes ago, duke of queens said:

Stark did make a good case for the 66 game schedule, just afraid another counter is gonna just piss off the owners and be back to square one.

Me too.

Like I said, I'm reserving judgement til we see it.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, WahooManiac said:

I get ya,  but at this point 6 games is close enough.  The juice isn't worth the stretch,  friggin play ball. 

It doesn't seem like a lot, but it is about 3% of their salary.

It gets them up to 40%, plus as Stark outlined yesterday it makes more sense from a scheduling prospective.  60 to me seems more arbitrary, and if it is really "close enough" shouldn't cause more ire from owners.  They just need to do it quick, and if they're egregiously in excess of that number I won't defend it. 

Edited by JE7HorseGod

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Given the excitement the whole "close to a deal" narrative generated yesterday among fans, it would be beyond catastrophic for the league if there suddenly is no deal and all parties involved know it. My sense is that this is last minute posturing to try and maximize the number of games (there's no way the owners are going to agree to a deal without a waiver of grievances and it sounds like that's already been agreed to behind the scenes anyway). I fully anticipate a deal by this weekend.

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25 minutes ago, duke of queens said:

Stark did make a good case for the 66 game schedule, just afraid another counter is gonna just piss off the owners and be back to square one.

 

The Commissioner/Owners leaked an agreement through their baseball insiders yesterday. 

These baseball insiders ran with it without checking with the Union.  The Union tweeted any reports of an agreement are false.

Whatever discussions happened between Manfred and Tony Clark have to be run by both the players and the owners before a framework or agreement can be reported as agreed upon.  They jumped the gun yesterday for a reason.  To create more leverage.  Now the fans are upset again.  Shocking.

They could have agreed on 66 games a month ago instead of dragging these negotiations through the mud.

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I guess they had to push each other to the brink of nuclear war in order to feel sure they didn’t leave anything on the negotiating table

The players can grouse all they want about 60 games being too short but we all know closing at 66 is their best deal

One things is for sure, the players’ bad faith lawsuit is swirling the drain, the clock is ticking and they haven’t made any offers since June 9th!

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Weekday Warrior said:

I guess they had to push each other to the brink of nuclear war in order to feel sure they didn’t leave anything on the negotiating table

The players can grouse all they want about 60 games being too short but we all know closing at 66 is their best deal

One things is for sure, the players’ bad faith lawsuit is swirling the drain, the clock is ticking and they haven’t made any offers since June 9th!

 

The grievance is about whether they played the most games possible as per their March agreement where they both agreed to play as many games as possible as long as the virus was not preventing such.  They could have opened spring training on June 10th with the season beginning on July 4th, as stated in numerous reports.  Any games starting after that,  could potentially be grieved, because the virus is not preventing the work stoppage at this point.

That may not stop the owners from making the argument it's still not safe if things break down again.  They already said some players have come down with Covid recently.  And yesterday Manfred told reporters he thought they had an agreement to get things started with no mention of sick players.

Edited by Brooklyn Dude

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16 minutes ago, Brooklyn Dude said:

 

The grievance is about whether they played the most games possible as per their March agreement where they both agreed to play as many games as possible as long as the virus was not preventing such.  They could have opened spring training on June 10th with the season beginning on July 4th, as stated in numerous reports.  Any games starting after that,  could potentially be grieved, because the virus is not preventing the work stoppage at this point.

That may not stop the owners from making the argument it's still not safe if things break down again.  They already said some players have come down with Covid recently.  And yesterday Manfred told reporters he thought they had an agreement to get things started with no mention of sick players.


Okay but that particular grievance hinges on the Commish exercising the option to unilaterally set a season, right?

We now know that is never going to happen without a grievance waiver, it would be too big a craw in the owners’ throat to pay them for even one more game that wasn’t actually played.  The owners would rather cancel, which the March agreement gives them the absolute right to do if stadiums aren’t open.  

If the season is cancelled, the only grievance the players could file would be an alleged failure by the owners to negotiate in good faith over the economic viability of having a season in empty stadiums.  But this section of the agreement calls for a negotiation, and the players haven’t made an offer in 9 days! 

All I’m saying in as much as they act like they’ve got the upper hand the players don’t have any good options besides making a deal and with time growing short they need to grab 66 games while they can...

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13 minutes ago, Weekday Warrior said:


Okay but that particular grievance hinges on the Commish exercising the option to unilaterally set a season, right?

 

Within reason.  I copied and pasted the following:

 

 

Major League Baseball and the MLB Players Association have finalized a deal that addresses both salary and service-time issues, among others, as the entire sport continues to wait out the coronavirus pandemic.

With no start date set for the 2020 season, the two sides had been negotiating for the past couple weeks in an effort to figure out how to handle the potential for a shortened season.

Both MLB and the MLBPA are committed to playing as many regular-season games as possible, leaving open the possibility of the schedule going into October and the postseason being played into November.

No agreements were made regarding the schedule, but given the current uncertainty, the deal leaves enough flexibility for the two sides to work together toward that shared goal. Both MLB and the MLBPA have formed subcommittees to continue discussing any unresolved issues related to the 2020 season.

The Commissioner’s Office will put together a schedule at the appropriate time, then the union will have input before it is finalized. The postseason format could also be altered for 2020, including the prospect of some games being played at neutral sites.

 

https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-players-association-season-deal-coronavirus-plan

 

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Brooklyn Dude said:

 

Within reason.  I copied and pasted the following:

 

 

Major League Baseball and the MLB Players Association have finalized a deal that addresses both salary and service-time issues, among others, as the entire sport continues to wait out the coronavirus pandemic.

With no start date set for the 2020 season, the two sides had been negotiating for the past couple weeks in an effort to figure out how to handle the potential for a shortened season.

Both MLB and the MLBPA are committed to playing as many regular-season games as possible, leaving open the possibility of the schedule going into October and the postseason being played into November.

No agreements were made regarding the schedule, but given the current uncertainty, the deal leaves enough flexibility for the two sides to work together toward that shared goal. Both MLB and the MLBPA have formed subcommittees to continue discussing any unresolved issues related to the 2020 season.

The Commissioner’s Office will put together a schedule at the appropriate time, then the union will have input before it is finalized. The postseason format could also be altered for 2020, including the prospect of some games being played at neutral sites.

 

https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-players-association-season-deal-coronavirus-plan

 


That is just a summary relaying the gist of the agreement, which very specifically says one of the criteria for having any season is "no restrictions against fans attending games" (google it).

In theory the players could cancel a season over this missing criteria too (of course, why would they?), but if the owners do it the agreement is clear it is their right to do so, in which case I see no other specific language in the agreement that the players could grieve under besides the clause calling for the parties to “discuss in good faith the economic feasibility of playing games in the absence of spectators”.

A grievance under this clause seems MUCH tougher for the players to win on than a scenario where both sides waive the criteria for a season to start and the commish unilaterally sets a super short season.

Edited by Weekday Warrior

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I can't believe the players are STILL holding up the baseball season over 10 measly games.  Stupid 4 year olds throwing temper tantrums at this point trying to squeeze out chump change for most of them as they kill their golden goose.  And that isn't fair to the majority of real 4 year olds. 

Play ball NOW you idiots.  As it is your projected starting date of July 20th would only have about 10 days jump on hockey and basketball starting their playoffs and taking away your audience.  Any delay at this point means you don't get casual sports fans to watch baseball period.  You guys screwed up being the only show in town of the major 4 sports this summer in short and messed up baseball for years to come.  Now all you have left is that 10 day period and you are pissing that away.  Stupid, dumb, idiotic players.

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

I can't believe the players are STILL holding up the baseball season over 10 measly games.  Stupid 4 year olds throwing temper tantrums at this point trying to squeeze out chump change for most of them as they kill their golden goose.  And that isn't fair to the majority of real 4 year olds. 

Play ball NOW you idiots.  As it is your projected starting date of July 20th would only have about 10 days jump on hockey and basketball starting their playoffs and taking away your audience.  Any delay at this point means you don't get casual sports fans to watch baseball period.  You guys screwed up being the only show in town of the major 4 sports this summer in short and messed up baseball for years to come.  Now all you have left is that 10 day period and you are pissing that away.  Stupid, dumb, idiotic players.

Yeah these guys redefine the phrase "selfish morons".  They are now arguing over 10 games to get what, a compromise to 65-66?  Stupid beyond belief unless their goal is to kill it and not play at all.  They could have agreed on 60 games likely weeks ago.  Instead they play all these games and then play some more games because they now want 10 more?  It really makes no sense and you just have to wonder whether the MLBPA is run by imbeciles now or whether they just are intentionally trying to destroy the season, the game and themselves because they did not get everything they wanted.  You really could not make this sort of stuff up if you tried on how to make the players look the absolute worst imo.

Edited by secretagentman
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I don't know what is more astonishing, how much owners hate baseball or how comically incompetent their negotiations have been. Manfred and the owners apparently haven't been on the same page this entire time, are transparently leaking everything under the guise of pseudo-proposals, want 16 team playoffs and are about to throw a tantrum over 10 games. How anyone can respect the owners is stupefying.

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18 minutes ago, secretagentman said:

Yeah these guys redefine the phrase "selfish morons".  They are now arguing over 10 games to get what, a compromise to 65-66?  Stupid beyond belief unless their goal is to kill it and not play at all.  They could have agreed on 60 games likely weeks ago.  Instead they play all these games and then play some more games because they now want 10 more?  It really makes no sense and you just have to wonder whether the MLBPA is run by imbeciles now or whether they just are intentionally trying to destroy the season, the game and themselves because they did not get everything they wanted.  You really could not make this sort of stuff up if you tried on how to make the players look the absolute worst imo.

Well put!

Quote

Jon Heyman of MLB Network reports that the owners are "not responding positively" to the MLBPA's counter proposal.

One owner even went as far as to say the counter was "DOA," and USA Today's Bob Nightengale says the owners are "livid" about the MLBPA's offer. The owners seem to think they had the framework of an agreement to a 60-game season with fully prorated salaries following a meeting Tuesday between commissioner Rob Manfred and union chief Tony Clark. However, the players don't agree and want to play more games, officially submitting a 70-game counter on Thursday. It seems natural for the two sides to meet in the middle at 65 games (or 66 since that might make the most sense scheduling-wise), but at this point that looks far from a shoo-in.

Source: Jon Heyman on Twitter                    Jun 18, 2020, 3:00 PM ET

Not only are the owners livid with this bait and switch by the players association but most all baseball fans as well.  All this crap over 5 or 6 games.  I have totally 100% had it with the players.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

Well put!

Not only are the owners livid with this bait and switch by the players association but most all baseball fans as well.  All this crap over 5 or 6 games.  I have totally 100% had it with the players.

It really has reached the point where the players look so bad that the owners could now come back and say forget it as the players are completely crazy, so no season and set the tone for end of 2021.  At this point, everyone would blame the players anyway imo.  There is too much money involved for that to happen in all likelihood, but those supposed 6 to 8 owners in favor of no season already could easily become the majority after all this nonsense and it would serve the players right for being such jerks imo.  Yes the owners could be posturing about the 6-8 owners already in favor of no season, but after all this it is not beyond the realm of reasonable that they piss off another 7 or 8 and cause the owners to not have a working majority to go forward and basically force the commissioner to change course.  And I have no idea what the owner's by-laws are wrt what percentage of them is needed to make an agreement, be it 50, 67, 75 or something else.

Edited by secretagentman

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Why would Manfred fly all the way out to Arizona to give a proposal. He didn't, they ironed out everything and an agreement was made. If it was a proposal he could've sent an email. The union is a bunch imbeciles. I was for the players and still am but the union as a whole has become impossible to deal with.  

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70 seems as arbitrary as 60 from a scheduling prospective.

I think Stark's idea of 66 makes perfect sense when you break down how it works.

I don't really understand what either side is thinking at this point honestly.

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How long are the series in the added round of the playoffs?

Let's assume rounds 2-4 follow normal DS-CS-WS follow current format (5-7-7), because duh, they're not going to have less.

If round 1 also has 5 games, then that's potentially as many as 81 playoff games following a 60 to 70 game regular season?

Seems pretty oversaturated.  I don't know if they're gonna get the playoff TV viewers they're expecting if there is that many, people will get burned out except for the diehards.

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1 hour ago, Weekday Warrior said:

That is just a summary relaying the gist of the agreement, which very specifically says one of the criteria for having any season is "no restrictions against fans attending games" (google it).

 

I didn't see anything in the agreement or the summary regarding fan restriction.  If you see something out there,  please share.

I think everybody knew playing sports at some point would be with some type of fan restriction and the possibility of a second wave in the fall was a possibility. The owners know that a grievance for 48 games or a complete cancellation of the season would most likely end badly for them which is why they want the players to agree to not file a grievance.  I would say 60 games is a gray area that could go either way w/o an agreement,  and 66 would get an agreement and waive the filing of a grievance.

Any agreement should be announced jointly so there is no more leaking by the reporters.  I think everybody is tired of the back and forth tweets.

 

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1 hour ago, Brooklyn Dude said:

 

I didn't see anything in the agreement or the summary regarding fan restriction.  If you see something out there,  please share.

I think everybody knew playing sports at some point would be with some type of fan restriction and the possibility of a second wave in the fall was a possibility. The owners know that a grievance for 48 games or a complete cancellation of the season would most likely end badly for them which is why they want the players to agree to not file a grievance.  I would say 60 games is a gray area that could go either way w/o an agreement,  and 66 would get an agreement and waive the filing of a grievance.

Any agreement should be announced jointly so there is no more leaking by the reporters.  I think everybody is tired of the back and forth tweets.

 


Dude all you had to do was google the words I put in quotes but okay here you go....

https://www.latimes.com/sports/story/2020-06-10/why-mlb-players-will-prevail-on-getting-full-prorated-salary

The “Resumption of Play” section of the agreement sets three criteria: no restrictions against fans attending games; no restrictions on travel through the United States and Canada; no unreasonable health or safety risk to players, staff or fans.“

Regardless of what people realistically expected, that is what the agreement says, so if owners cancel the season there really isn’t much recourse. If you think otherwise, show me the language players could say owners violated in the event they enforce the above quoted language.

The grievance only provides implied value to the players in a context where both parties mutually agree to waive these criteria, and then the commissioner sets a schedule that short-shrifts the players’ contractual right of “input” on setting the schedule.  That is not gonna happen without grievance waiver, the owners would rather cancel the season.

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Tomorrow is the day. I can feel it.

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