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The 7th Beatles

2020 Owner / Player Negotiations

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5 minutes ago, meh2 said:

Tomorrow is the day. I can feel it.

66.  Do it.  Do it now.

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5 hours ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

I can't believe the players are STILL holding up the baseball season over 10 measly games.  Stupid 4 year olds throwing temper tantrums at this point trying to squeeze out chump change for most of them as they kill their golden goose.  And that isn't fair to the majority of real 4 year olds. 

Play ball NOW you idiots.  As it is your projected starting date of July 20th would only have about 10 days jump on hockey and basketball starting their playoffs and taking away your audience.  Any delay at this point means you don't get casual sports fans to watch baseball period.  You guys screwed up being the only show in town of the major 4 sports this summer in short and messed up baseball for years to come.  Now all you have left is that 10 day period and you are pissing that away.  Stupid, dumb, idiotic players.

Exactly, the players keep tweeting “when and where” but it’s becoming more and more obvious that the players are selfish greedy pos’s. Fans won’t let this slide either, douche bags like Trout, Harper, Yelich, Scherzer, Snell are going to feel the backlash for the rest of their careers.

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5 hours ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

I can't believe the owners are STILL holding up the baseball season over 10 measly games.  Stupid 4 year olds throwing temper tantrums at this point trying to squeeze out chump change for most of them as they kill their golden goose.  And that isn't fair to the majority of real 4 year olds. 

Play ball NOW you idiots.  As it is your projected starting date of July 20th would only have about 10 days jump on hockey and basketball starting their playoffs and taking away your audience.  Any delay at this point means you don't get casual sports fans to watch baseball period.  You guys screwed up being the only show in town of the major 4 sports this summer in short and messed up baseball for years to come.  Now all you have left is that 10 day period and you are pissing that away.  Stupid, dumb, idiotic players.

How dare they! Fixed.

Same type of fantasy players will react like this when you dont crack at the end of a trade negotiation after 4 counter proposals. If you start so far away that even when you get to a middle point, its not in your favor, then you should hold your ground.

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17 minutes ago, sjs1890 said:

Exactly, the players keep tweeting “when and where” but it’s becoming more and more obvious that the players are selfish greedy pos’s. Fans won’t let this slide either, douche bags like Trout, Harper, Yelich, Scherzer, Snell are going to feel the backlash for the rest of their careers.

Im sure you have it pegged

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5 minutes ago, Ireallymemeit said:

How dare they! Fixed.

Same type of fantasy players will react like this when you dont crack at the end of a trade negotiation after 4 counter proposals. If you start so far away that even when you get to a middle point, its not in your favor, then you should hold your ground.

Quit quoting me inaccurately.  State your own opinions but don't "fix" and mess with mine. 

There was room for getting upset at both sides at the beginning.  But now?  The players are screwing this up period at this point.  This isn't some silly fantasy trade.  This is real life big boy negotiations and they have blown it by acting like 4-year olds.

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13 minutes ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

Quit quoting me inaccurately.  State your own opinions but don't "fix" and mess with mine. 

There was room for getting upset at both sides at the beginning.  But now?  The players are screwing this up period at this point.  This isn't some silly fantasy trade.  This is real life big boy negotiations and they have blown it by acting like 4-year olds.

It's not the Iranian hostage negotiation.  It's still just baseball.  And at the end of the day the people most affected by it are them because it's their livelihood.

Let's just give it a day or two to let it breathe.  See if cooler heads prevail and they don't come up with terms everyone feels good about.

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6 hours ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

I can't believe the players are STILL holding up the baseball season over 10 measly games.  Stupid 4 year olds throwing temper tantrums at this point trying to squeeze out chump change for most of them as they kill their golden goose.  And that isn't fair to the majority of real 4 year olds. 

Play ball NOW you idiots.  As it is your projected starting date of July 20th would only have about 10 days jump on hockey and basketball starting their playoffs and taking away your audience.  Any delay at this point means you don't get casual sports fans to watch baseball period.  You guys screwed up being the only show in town of the major 4 sports this summer in short and messed up baseball for years to come.  Now all you have left is that 10 day period and you are pissing that away.  Stupid, dumb, idiotic players.

whining about other people whining

One side started at 115, the other at 48 and you're mad that one side now wants 70 and the other 60.  I'd say the players have given enough. 

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1 hour ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

Quit quoting me inaccurately.  State your own opinions but don't "fix" and mess with mine. 

There was room for getting upset at both sides at the beginning.  But now?  The players are screwing this up period at this point.  This isn't some silly fantasy trade.  This is real life big boy negotiations and they have blown it by acting like 4-year olds.

Innacurately? I fixed it for you. Do you get it yet?

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3 hours ago, Weekday Warrior said:


Dude all you had to do was google the words I put in quotes but okay here you go....

https://www.latimes.com/sports/story/2020-06-10/why-mlb-players-will-prevail-on-getting-full-prorated-salary

The “Resumption of Play” section of the agreement sets three criteria: no restrictions against fans attending games; no restrictions on travel through the United States and Canada; no unreasonable health or safety risk to players, staff or fans.“

Regardless of what people realistically expected, that is what the agreement says, so if owners cancel the season there really isn’t much recourse. If you think otherwise, show me the language players could say owners violated in the event they enforce the above quoted language.

The grievance only provides implied value to the players in a context where both parties mutually agree to waive these criteria, and then the commissioner sets a schedule that short-shrifts the players’ contractual right of “input” on setting the schedule.  That is not gonna happen without grievance waiver, the owners would rather cancel the season.

 

I appreciate the link to this article which says this is Randy Levine and the owners understanding of the agreement. 

But the March agreement between the players and the owners was never made public. 

 

This is taken from the article: Randy: “the agreement says that, based on those facts and the economic feasibility of the moment, there has to be a renegotiation on salaries. That is not my opinion, that is what the text of the agreement says.”

Not quite. This is what the text says: “The Office of the Commissioner and Players Association will discuss in good faith the economic feasibility of playing games in the absence of spectators.”

 

Next comes the interpretation of “economic feasibility.” It is, after all, what both sides are committed to discuss.

Owners say it would include salary reductions, considering that less money would be made from games without fans. Players say the salaries are set and that the two sides would discuss what could be done to make fan-free games a more financially viable proposition. In that context, players say they would have considered a salary reduction if owners would have provided sufficient financial documentation to support such a request. Owners say they have.

Nonetheless, “discuss in good faith the economic feasibility” is not the same as “discuss the amount by which salaries shall be reduced.”

That latter language would have made clear the intent of the two sides, rather than leave the matter open for interpretation. The parties should have been more attentive to clarity, especially considering the words “for clarity,” “for purposes of clarity,” “to illustrate,” and “for the avoidance of doubt” appear a combined 10 times in other sections of the 17-page document.

 

And I think therein lies the problem.  Whatever each side thought was agreed upon was not clearly memorialized.  Should it go to an arbitrator, the owners don't feel confident about the outcome and have clearly been conceding quite a few things from their original bargaining position.

At this point,  they just need to agree to something since they have closed the gap by quite a bit in just the last two days since they got serious.

 

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1 hour ago, desert86 said:

whining about other people whining

One side started at 115, the other at 48 and you're mad that one side now wants 70 and the other 60.  I'd say the players have given enough. 

The players are destroying their sport over 5 games since they are aiming more for a middle number of around 65.  Meanwhile, like I said, they have given away the nation's spotlight on baseball and ceded it to basketball and hockey.  Stupid stupid idiots.  They are fouling their own nest.

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15 minutes ago, Brooklyn Dude said:

 

I appreciate the link to this article which says this is Randy Levine and the owners understanding of the agreement. 

But the March agreement between the players and the owners was never made public. 

 

This is taken from the article: Randy: “the agreement says that, based on those facts and the economic feasibility of the moment, there has to be a renegotiation on salaries. That is not my opinion, that is what the text of the agreement says.”

Not quite. This is what the text says: “The Office of the Commissioner and Players Association will discuss in good faith the economic feasibility of playing games in the absence of spectators.”

 

Next comes the interpretation of “economic feasibility.” It is, after all, what both sides are committed to discuss.

Owners say it would include salary reductions, considering that less money would be made from games without fans. Players say the salaries are set and that the two sides would discuss what could be done to make fan-free games a more financially viable proposition. In that context, players say they would have considered a salary reduction if owners would have provided sufficient financial documentation to support such a request. Owners say they have.

Nonetheless, “discuss in good faith the economic feasibility” is not the same as “discuss the amount by which salaries shall be reduced.”

That latter language would have made clear the intent of the two sides, rather than leave the matter open for interpretation. The parties should have been more attentive to clarity, especially considering the words “for clarity,” “for purposes of clarity,” “to illustrate,” and “for the avoidance of doubt” appear a combined 10 times in other sections of the 17-page document.

 

And I think therein lies the problem.  Whatever each side thought was agreed upon was not clearly memorialized.  Should it go to an arbitrator, the owners don't feel confident about the outcome and have clearly been conceding quite a few things from their original bargaining position.

At this point,  they just need to agree to something since they have closed the gap by quite a bit in just the last two days since they got serious.

 


You’re obfuscating totally different aspects of the agreement.  The owners’ season cancellation option and forced regular season length are birds of totally different feathers.

Do you think the journalist is grossly mis-representing an unambiguous aspect of the agreement (ie season resumption is not mandatory for anyone without open stadiums)? I ask again that you show the me the link that even hints that season cancellation is grievable by the players the same way a forced season schedule is and under what language in the agreement they could do so,

All that other text you’re quoting really just goes to a different issue, namely the owner’s lack of leverage in dictating the terms in a context where both sides agree to have a season (ie waiving the requirement of live games) but can’t agree on season length and/or salaries. I agree with the author that the “have discussion about economic feasibility” language is vague and it doesn’t matter what people thought it meant.

 

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

The players are destroying their sport over 5 games since they are aiming more for a middle number of around 65.  Meanwhile, like I said, they have given away the nation's spotlight on baseball and ceded it to basketball and hockey.  Stupid stupid idiots.  They are fouling their own nest.

As noted before, it has reached the point where someone on the players side with some common sense and sense of reality better step up and just agree to something before the owners end up cancelling the whole season.  The utter and complete stupidity of arguing over 5-10 games or effectively 3 to 6% of their annual contract in this situation and risking getting 0% instead of 37% because they originally wanted 50-70%  is so incomprehensible and beyond the pale as to make you question whether the MLBPA leadership is just a complete bunch of imbeciles imo.  They are arguing over roughly 3% because they want 40% instead of 37%.

 

This idiocy reminds me of the story of Carl "Buttocks Injury" Pavano who ended up firing his agent after signing a 4 year, 39.95 million dollar contract with the Yankees.  Now you would think a complete loser like Pavano would have been happy with that at the time, but no.  He was upset that he got 50k less than the 40M he wanted.  That is sort of the mentality the MLBPA is displaying here imo.

Edited by secretagentman
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Posted (edited)

It’s pretty clearly the owners fault regardless of the same posters who hate players make millions in multiple posts. 
 

The players are more financially incentivized to have a season than the owners in 2020, doesn’t take much to figure out who is purposely delaying it for financial reasons. 
 

There was no deal, owners just shrewdly figured out how to temporarily shift blame. Fans who think otherwise are just gettijg played ( some of them happily ). The owners are smarter than the players. You don’t become a billionaire on luck. They are incredibly shrewd businessmen. You don’t become a great baseball player on luck either to be clear.  

Edited by brockpapersizer
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10 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

It’s pretty clearly the owners fault regardless of the same posters who hate players make millions in multiple posts. 
 

The players are more financially incentivized to have a season than the owners in 2020, doesn’t take much to figure out who is purposely delaying it for financial reasons. 
 

There was no deal, owners just shrewdly figured out how to temporarily shift blame. Fans who think otherwise are just gettijg played ( some of them happily ). The owners are smarter than the players. You don’t become a billionaire on luck. They are incredibly shrewd businessmen. You don’t become a great baseball player on luck either to be clear.  

I'm not getting played.  The players have played themselves.  And yes the owners have far smarter negotiators than that idiot heading the players association.  That we can totally agree about.

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22 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

It’s pretty clearly the owners fault regardless of the same posters who hate players make millions in multiple posts. 
 

The players are more financially incentivized to have a season than the owners in 2020, doesn’t take much to figure out who is purposely delaying it for financial reasons. 
 

There was no deal, owners just shrewdly figured out how to temporarily shift blame. Fans who think otherwise are just gettijg played ( some of them happily ). The owners are smarter than the players. You don’t become a billionaire on luck. They are incredibly shrewd businessmen. You don’t become a great baseball player on luck either to be clear.  

No that’s just your opinion. My opinion is that mlb has offered a fair deal. 60 games full pro rata is more than fair. The players are moronic arguing/delaying over 3% really? Wtf? At this point I wouldn’t mind the owners just cancelling the season due to mlbpa’s ignorance. The P.R against the players would be so bad and it’s what they deserve.

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1 hour ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

The players are destroying their sport over 5 games since they are aiming more for a middle number of around 65.  Meanwhile, like I said, they have given away the nation's spotlight on baseball and ceded it to basketball and hockey.  Stupid stupid idiots.  They are fouling their own nest.

Imagine giving up 45 points to meet "close to the middle" while your opponent gives up 12 and people get mad at you for not giving up 5 more.

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JUST ANSWER ME THIS MY FELLOW THUMB SUCKING FANTASY BASEBALL BROTHERS. WILL WE HAVE EFFIN BASEBALL IN 2020 IN YOUR OPINION OR NOT MY FELLOW NUMBNUTS.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, desert86 said:

Imagine giving up 45 points to meet "close to the middle" while your opponent gives up 12 and people get mad at you for not giving up 5 more.

Imagine getting nothing because you believe someone else is going to lose money so you can make more.  Good luck with that.  They can believe they deserve whatever they like from 162 games on down.  In the end, the owners are not going to do something they will lose money on or are not comfortable with and not realizing that and going and throwing a temper tantrum while threatening to hold your breathe until you get your way is not going to change any of that.  The players are employees, not franchise owners and do not get to set all the terms of their employment.  They all need to get a does of realism, take their heads out of their back sides and face the real world for what it is imo.  And the sooner the better before they end up with 0, which would be such an epic screw up it would go down as one of the dumbest moves ever in business and sports imo.  Loses billions in salary because you wanted an extra 3% lmao.

Edited by secretagentman
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5 hours ago, Johnnyapplebot said:

JUST ANSWER ME THIS MY FELLOW THUMB SUCKING FANTASY BASEBALL BROTHERS. WILL WE HAVE EFFIN BASEBALL IN 2020 IN YOUR OPINION OR NOT MY FELLOW NUMBNUTS.

I believe so.

Despite the posturing by both sides to the media about how incredulous they are, believing that one offer or another "was a deal" and then the other group rebuffing and countering, it seems like they've closed the gap quite a bit and I think they'll come up with a solution.

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8 hours ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

I'm not getting played.  The players have played themselves.  And yes the owners have far smarter negotiators than that idiot heading the players association.  That we can totally agree about.

I feel deep down both sides are at fault. I read an article about some owners who don’t want a 2020 season. 

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21 minutes ago, shakestreet said:

I feel deep down both sides are at fault. I read an article about some owners who don’t want a 2020 season. 

 

I agree with this. I have gone back and forth like a dumba$$ seasaw on who I blame for this and that just tells me that both sides are at fault here. I've respositioned my stance on this to point the finger at both sides.

Like I've been saying all along though, it's such a HUGE opportunity that baseball has squandered here. They could have taken the stage as a much needed sport/relief for fans to distract themselves from the insanity going on in the world.

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9 minutes ago, ThreadKiller said:

Like I've been saying all along though, it's such a HUGE opportunity that baseball has squandered here. They could have taken the stage as a much needed sport/relief for fans to distract themselves from the insanity going on in the world.

Agreed.  Unfortunately that ship has sailed.  Now they just have to save face.

At this point, they should be close enough to stop passing the napkin back and forth and decide on a number.  "The Stark plan" makes sense from a scheduling prospective.  Let's get it done.

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10 hours ago, The Big Bat Theory said:

The OWNERS are destroying their sport over 5 games since they are aiming more for a middle number of around 65.  Meanwhile, like I said, they have given away the nation's spotlight on baseball and ceded it to basketball and hockey.  Stupid stupid idiots.  They are fouling their own nest.

 

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They will settle and have a very short 50-55 game season, but they've done a lot of damage to each other and future labor agreement won't be pretty. So baseball will come back for a short period this season, but I can surely see future stoppage with new negotiating needing to be done.

 

Football, Basketball and Hockey are now above Baseball.....

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