duke of queens

Commissioners Corner 2020

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I’m going to start a league with underlying stats as the only scoring cats. 

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4 hours ago, cs3 said:

By definition, no they can't.

In 5x5 they would be 20% less valuable than an equivalent K/era/whip/W line from a closer

 

3 hours ago, duke of queens said:

Yes they can by having a better era/whip/ks/w than a crappy closer.

Ok so you either ignored the entire point of my post, or you're changing the argument.

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10 minutes ago, cs3 said:

 

Ok so you either ignored the entire point of my post, or you're changing the argument.

Ignored on purpose as  it proves no point. Show me a situation where all stats between a closer and middle reliever are equal besides saves and Ill show you an Astro telling the truth.😉

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12 hours ago, duke of queens said:

What about a pre-hold stat? The guy who holds down the lead before the hold? 🤔

 

Isn't that also a hold?

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But what about a pre-strikeout stat?? When you get three strikes on the guy who was up before the guy you just struck out? 

Edited by cs3
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19 hours ago, Grinner said:

 

Isn't that also a hold?

Yup, unless it's before the 5th and they give him the W

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On 2/7/2020 at 9:06 AM, CrypTviLL said:

Interested to hear what people think is the BEST position structure for a league.

I've repeatedly used this for 12-14 team leagues:

 

C
C
1b
2b
3b
SS
CI
MI
OF x 5
UTIL x 2

P x 8 or 9
B x 6
IL x 3
NA x 1

 

Do you feel there is an adjustment to make the balance better?

 

On 2/7/2020 at 10:24 AM, CrypTviLL said:

Another topic I'm interested in hearing opinions on is the best possible ROTO categories.

Standard : 5x5 R/RBI/HR/SB/AVG and W/S/K/ERA/WHIP

I replace AVG with OBP, just makes too much obvious sense.

But other than that I'm pretty stumped.

Last year I did a number of things, I had a 6x6 with R/RBI/HR/SB/OBP/SLG and W/S/K/ERA/WHIP/ (k/bb) or K/9.

But I hate the double nature of the 6th pitching category.. I'm already counting k's, I hate counting it twice in the form of K/bb or K/9. I also am not sure if I liked the SLG% stat. So I went back to 5x5.

We obviously all have issues with W's or QS... but QS was worse than wins for me... I hated seeing my pitchers do well only to go 5 IP and get the Win, but no the QS. Also kinda enjoyed chasing WINS more than QS because I could have some MRP get a few chip in wins (but they can't get chip in QS's).

In any case, what do you enjoy playing? 

So while I appreciate everyones fun debate regarding holds and less prevalent statistics.... I was wondering if anyone had opinions on my two questions here :).

1) Best position structure for a league
2) Best stat categories for Roto leagues.

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30 minutes ago, CrypTviLL said:

 

So while I appreciate everyones fun debate regarding holds and less prevalent statistics.... I was wondering if anyone had opinions on my two questions here :).

1) Best position structure for a league
2) Best stat categories for Roto leagues.

There is no best. But I would try and come close to standard whether doing roto or auction so you can do some sort of research. If you stray away and have crazy stats it makes that research much harder.

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On 2/7/2020 at 9:41 AM, MugsyBogues said:

I've had to implement what I've termed The Selling Period. It spans 5 days AFTER the trade deadline has passed. 

 

Basically, any deal that is accepted during the selling period can be countered by any other owner. After a trade has been agreed upon, I post it to text thread. Every owner has 24 hours to counter the deal. After 24 hours has passed, all the owners that texted they wished to counter do so. The seller then picks the best offer. The issue for an auction would be deciding the value of each player. Because what we do is only allow a pick for player (and return pick) trades during the selling period. This enables it to be fair, since a 6th round pick beats a 7th round pick, etc. You can only offer one pick for the player, so it's not like you have to decide between a 6th and 8th round pick vs say a 4th round pick. This allows for all owners to have a fair shot at players, as one owner may know the seller better than another owner. It's become the highlight of the season other than the playoffs and draft, as it gets absolutely crazy at the Selling Period. Everyone not in it is dumping, but the important part is all buyers have a similar chance to acquire players being sold. 

 

Edit: There are other rules, like no seller can have more than two picks per round through the first 7 rounds. Also, no buyer can have less than 4 picks in the first 7 rounds. Things like that to keep a balance. 

 

Not gonna lie, hate that

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7 hours ago, duke of queens said:

it makes that research much harder.

Which in theory, should give anyone who is willing to put in the time an edge

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On 2/7/2020 at 7:41 AM, MugsyBogues said:

Basically, any deal that is accepted during the selling period can be countered by any other owner. After a trade has been agreed upon, I post it to text thread. Every owner has 24 hours to counter the deal. After 24 hours has passed, all the owners that texted they wished to counter do so. The seller then picks the best offer. The issue for an auction would be deciding the value of each player. Because what we do is only allow a pick for player (and return pick) trades during the selling period. This enables it to be fair, since a 6th round pick beats a 7th round pick, etc. You can only offer one pick for the player, so it's not like you have to decide between a 6th and 8th round pick vs say a 4th round pick

No offense, but this sounds terrible for several reasons. 

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Fangraphs' Brad Johnson described a similar setup here, and noted some significant problems with it.

Quote

Beyond the basic mechanics, a few issues need to be addressed. Although the rule itself is simple, the execution of it is not.

First, what does it mean for a a team to accept a new offer? Let’s say Team A traded Rhys Hoskins for Team B’s Blake Snell. Several owners then make new offers to Team B. Team C offers Andrew Benintendi for Snell. Team D offers George Springer for Mike Clevinger.

In all cases, we have an “outfielder” offered for a good pitcher. However, Team D chose to move a tier down the rankings sheet from Snell. Do only offers for Snell count? Must offers involve only Snell i.e. the exact package originally traded? Can similar trades like the Clevinger scenario count? When is a trade too dissimilar to count?

Because this gets confusing rather quickly, I recommend setting the rules such that deals cannot expand. However, I believe it to be more reasonable to have trades become smaller. For example, Team B traded Snell and Clevinger for Christian Yelich then later decided Snell for Benintendi was a better use of resources.

I think you can see, this part of the rule can get very sticky. As such, the most important part is to have things clearly explained in your league constitution. Yes, you definitely need a constitution if you’re using this rule. Any time an unforeseen situation arises, it should be included in the constitution along with the proscribed way to handle it.

A second issue is with execution. Even highly flexible platforms like FanTrax aren’t designed to handle this setting. As such, I recommend a process using a third party message service like Slack or Discord. Trades are posted to a league trade channel set to email all members. That starts the clock. After all the bidding is done, whoever won the trades execute them via your fantasy platform of choice.

The commissioner should prepare to be active with enforcing this rule including but not limited to manually executing trades.

 

Commenters also noted the fact that it lets someone do the hard work of getting to a deal only to have someone else jump in at the last minute with a tiny sweetener to reap the benefits.  Ultimately I don't think the public trade negotiations / "beat this offer" stuff is workable for these reasons, although I totally get the intent.

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On 1/1/2020 at 11:11 PM, duke of queens said:

Wondering if anyone has any good league rules to combat/limit late season dump trades in auction keeper league? In season salary cap would work but would be burdensome to keep track/enforce since we are using Yahoo. Looking to limit teams from just trading away multiple high priced star players that cannot be kept the next year for cheap value players. Not trying to do away with it, just trying see if anyone had any good rules to limit the amount of players going to a team. It has gotten a little out of hand the last few years as teams out of the race just dont care about the non-keepers they will include a lot for any low priced keepers. 

 

My league instituted a salary cap several years ago and all it did was make 2 for 2 trades into 4 for 4 trades so people could stay under the cap. Useless IMO. As for teams loading up with high priced stars, I say let them. Eventually they'll run out of decent value players to trade, nobody else will dump to them and the issue will take care of itself.

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On 2/7/2020 at 10:24 AM, CrypTviLL said:

Another topic I'm interested in hearing opinions on is the best possible ROTO categories.

Standard : 5x5 R/RBI/HR/SB/AVG and W/S/K/ERA/WHIP

I replace AVG with OBP, just makes too much obvious sense.

But other than that I'm pretty stumped.

Last year I did a number of things, I had a 6x6 with R/RBI/HR/SB/OBP/SLG and W/S/K/ERA/WHIP/ (k/bb) or K/9.

But I hate the double nature of the 6th pitching category.. I'm already counting k's, I hate counting it twice in the form of K/bb or K/9. I also am not sure if I liked the SLG% stat. So I went back to 5x5.

We obviously all have issues with W's or QS... but QS was worse than wins for me... I hated seeing my pitchers do well only to go 5 IP and get the Win, but no the QS. Also kinda enjoyed chasing WINS more than QS because I could have some MRP get a few chip in wins (but they can't get chip in QS's).

In any case, what do you enjoy playing? 

 

My 10 team, AL only, auction, keeper uses the following:

average, HR, RBI, runs, 2*SB+BB

wins, ERA, K-BB, IP-H, saves+holds/2-blown saves

I've been trying to get the league to switch to quality starts+relief wins, instead of straight wins, but so far it hasn't passed.

 

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On 2/9/2020 at 9:41 AM, Hollywood42 said:

 

Not gonna lie, hate that

 

20 hours ago, cs3 said:

No offense, but this sounds terrible for several reasons. 

 

You have my attention. Not kidding, it's become a highlight of the season. I'm interested in your reactions though. Tell me more... 

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Ok I'll give a more detailed response.

 

Your system rewards owners for being lazy and letting someone else do all the serious negotiating. You can have guys who never send any initial offers out, or who never respond to trades offers, just jump in and "steal" a player with zero effort, after a trade has already been agreed upon. What if the selling owner doesn't want to make a trade with the guy who throws out the "best" offer for competitive reasons?

Who determines if a guy is "selling" anyway? Maybe two owners are both trying to improve and compete that year. Why should the rest of the league be allowed to jump in?

Another problem: what if multiple players are involved, but other teams jump in during the secondary window, only offering something for one of them, or offering something for more players than the original trade? What if some of the guys were originally just throw-ins to balance rosters? What if a certain player clearly adds much more value to one team, than to another team who comes along afterwards? Seems like tons of unforeseen problems can arise.

Why have a window where only a single draft pick is allowed? I mean I get the intent, but it solves a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place, and creates even more issues. What if a fair return would be multiple picks, or what if 2 guys both offer the same round pick? Does the owner who jumps in post-trade automatically win the deal if he happens to draft 1 pick earlier in that particular round? How do you even know exactly which pick in any particular round every team will have next year, when you're still in the middle of the season?

To me, it makes a ton more sense for owners to just decide for themselves if they want to make  offers public before they accept a deal. The soft deadline thing makes me cringe.

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1 hour ago, cs3 said:

Ok I'll give a more detailed response.

 

Your system rewards owners for being lazy and letting someone else do all the serious negotiating. You can have guys who never send any initial offers out, or who never respond to trades offers, just jump in and "steal" a player with zero effort, after a trade has already been agreed upon. What if the selling owner doesn't want to make a trade with the guy who throws out the "best" offer for competitive reasons?

Who determines if a guy is "selling" anyway? Maybe two owners are both trying to improve and compete that year. Why should the rest of the league be allowed to jump in?

Another problem: what if multiple players are involved, but other teams jump in during the secondary window, only offering something for one of them, or offering something for more players than the original trade? What if some of the guys were originally just throw-ins to balance rosters? What if a certain player clearly adds much more value to one team, than to another team who comes along afterwards? Seems like tons of unforeseen problems can arise.

Why have a window where only a single draft pick is allowed? I mean I get the intent, but it solves a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place, and creates even more issues. What if a fair return would be multiple picks, or what if 2 guys both offer the same round pick? Does the owner who jumps in post-trade automatically win the deal if he happens to draft 1 pick earlier in that particular round? How do you even know exactly which pick in any particular round every team will have next year, when you're still in the middle of the season?

To me, it makes a ton more sense for owners to just decide for themselves if they want to make  offers public before they accept a deal. The soft deadline thing makes me cringe.

I’ll answer your questions in order. Many valid, and many we have encountered. 
 

Our league is 12 guys all from the same area, but like any group some of us know each other better than others. So, we would see oftentimes someone like me (the commissioner) who is close to all 11 other owners have more opportunity to make deals than other owners who may only know half of the league well. It made it seem unfair, imo. And honestly, that’s a huge reason for the rule, fairness. It’s not fair for me to get more deals because I’m better friends w the entire league and may see all of them more than others, and way more than a few other owners. Drinking w your buddies has closed many a deal. 
 

I feel I’ve already answered the second part of paragraph two. However, the first part, who decides a seller is declared after your first deal following the free-for-all deadline? You do.  Again, the selling period happens a for 4-5 days after the free-for-all deadline. But once you “buy” or “sell” during the Selling Period you are that for the entire SP. You cannot be both a seller and buyer. 
 

if you want deals involving throw-ins and multiple players, do it before the free-for-all deadline. 
 

The reason only one draft pick can be allowed is to keep the counter offers easy to figure out a winner. If three owners want to counter a deal that’s say a 5th round pick for Vlad Guerrero and a 12th pick in return, then the original buyer (as we call em) will offer a second deal along w the three owners that want to counter. In this case, the counter offers must be better than a 5th round (so a 4th at minimum). This is so counter offers can’t just counter to raise the price. After the seller receives all four offers he will pick the best. None of the buyers know what each other offered, so it’s actually pretty entertaining waiting to find out who won the deal. 
 

To answer another question, we do not try and figure out who’s 4th round pick will be better, per se. I understand what you mean by that, but it doesn’t come into play as we don’t know for sure until season ends. (In our league winner of consolation title gets the first pick and so forth 1-6. Then the champ gets last pick and 2nd place 2nd to last pick etc). However, if three owners counter with the same offer then the original buyer gets the deal. If two who aren’t the original owner tie, then it goes to waiver order. Tie breaker winner then moves to bottom of waiver order. 
 

Again, it’s still the Wild West when it comes to trading until the Selling Period. So if the deadline is Aug 1 then have at until then. But from Aug 2-5 you’re either a seller or a buyer. I’m telling you, the action is insane during the Selling Period. I bet we had 30 deals last year over those 4-5 days. Saying that, it’s a pain in the a** to keep up with as I post all deals in a text thread and then update we counters and deals are made. It’s wild, but it’s fun as hell. 
 

Btw, I appreciate the discussion. 

Edited by MugsyBogues

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Starting a 14 team deep-ish roster (30+5DL/NA) with deep-ish keepers (up to 15) with +$5 yearly values auction league.  Any thoughts on what the total draft dollars should be?  Too low and there will be few keepers, too high and there will be many... I feel like standard 260 is the right number but also leaning a little higher because of the keeper depth... 

Any thoughts? 

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4 hours ago, tsh00k said:

Starting a 14 team deep-ish roster (30+5DL/NA) with deep-ish keepers (up to 15) with +$5 yearly values auction league.  Any thoughts on what the total draft dollars should be?  Too low and there will be few keepers, too high and there will be many... I feel like standard 260 is the right number but also leaning a little higher because of the keeper depth... 

Any thoughts? 

260-280 sounds right

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In a 12 team dynasty auction league with minors.   We usually proceed in the following way; submit keepers, auction draft, slow draft minors(4 rounds). A number of minors eligible players get drafted in the auction, usually the best of the best. Minors taken in the slow draft are at $0 and can stay at that salary till no longer minors eligible.

The order of the slow minors draft is set by finish in the standings. I feel that those who get the first few picks get robbed of the opportunity of picking the best prospects.

Question1: Is it reasonable to ask that the slow draft minors happens before the auction so as to give the minors draft position it's proper value?

 

We presently can retain up to 12 keepers. Many owners load up on minors at near season's end. (FA pickups(including minors) are $10, with a $2 yearly bump). The majority of these minors get no MLB playing time and just sit on the roster.

Question2: Would it be fair to require that minors picked up as FA's after a set date be required to be retained for a season as part of a teams keepers?

Any feed back or suggestions are appreciated.

Thx

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9 minutes ago, xyzzy said:

In a 12 team dynasty auction league with minors.   We usually proceed in the following way; submit keepers, auction draft, slow draft minors(4 rounds). A number of minors eligible players get drafted in the auction, usually the best of the best. Minors taken in the slow draft are at $0 and can stay at that salary till no longer minors eligible.

The order of the slow minors draft is set by finish in the standings. I feel that those who get the first few picks get robbed of the opportunity of picking the best prospects.

Question1: Is it reasonable to ask that the slow draft minors happens before the auction so as to give the minors draft position it's proper value?

 

We presently can retain up to 12 keepers. Many owners load up on minors at near season's end. (FA pickups(including minors) are $10, with a $2 yearly bump). The majority of these minors get no MLB playing time and just sit on the roster.

Question2: Would it be fair to require that minors picked up as FA's after a set date be required to be retained for a season as part of a teams keepers?

Any feed back or suggestions are appreciated.

Thx

 

 

Question 1:  It's stupid to have the auction before the minor league draft based on how your league structure, so no, it would not be unreasonable to ask. A change should be made.

 

Question 2: I'm unsure about what youre asking. You're asking for minor leaguers picked up after a certain date required to be kept under the 12?  I'm unsure why. 

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3 minutes ago, brockpapersizer said:

 

 

Question 1:  It's stupid to have the auction before the minor league draft based on how your league structure, so no, it would not be unreasonable to ask. A change should be made.

 

Question 2: I'm unsure about what youre asking. You're asking for minor leaguers picked up after a certain date required to be kept under the 12?  I'm unsure why. 

 

Exactly what feedback I am looking for.                

In answer to your question on #2 . I guess this practice just bothers me. I feel there are far more valuable players that could affect standings to be totally surrendering in this manner.

If I'm nutz just tell me.... 😷

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, xyzzy said:

 

Exactly what feedback I am looking for.                

In answer to your question on #2 . I guess this practice just bothers me. I feel there are far more valuable players that could affect standings to be totally surrendering in this manner.

If I'm nutz just tell me.... 😷

 

Oh so you're worried tanking teams effect the race my clogging up their team with minor leaguers they don't keep just because they theoretically might have better keeper value?

 

I don't know. Ideally you want to structure your league as to have seperate minors and majors league roster, that way everyone has the same amount of minor leaguers and are forced to pick up the best major leaguers..  I'm in one league in ESPN where you no such option exists to split up majors or minors (unless we went to google sheets to maintain). We have 40 man rosters and 20 keepers. We have a rule that in auction you can draft anyone you want in the system, but during our weekly FAAB, you're only allowed to draft players who have played in the majors. This prevents teams from stacking minors, as well as makes FAAB much more fun when a good unowned prospect gets called up.

 

I agree that would bother me too. Those are my suggestions. 

Edited by brockpapersizer
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53 minutes ago, xyzzy said:

 

Exactly what feedback I am looking for.                

In answer to your question on #2 . I guess this practice just bothers me. I feel there are far more valuable players that could affect standings to be totally surrendering in this manner.

If I'm nutz just tell me.... 😷

We have 6 max Minor Leaguer rule on the roster. we are a keeper league though, not dynasty. This makes teams out of it to at least field a team of active players and not just drop the non-keepers for potential lottery ticket( a la Acuna). Our cost is $10 as well which is a bit pricey for a minor leaguer anyways.

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On 6/3/2020 at 2:59 PM, xyzzy said:

Question2: Would it be fair to require that minors picked up as FA's after a set date be required to be retained for a season as part of a teams keepers?

Similar to Brock's suggestion, we have separate Major and Minor league rosters. We differ a bit in that we allow teams to pick up anybody available in the system during the season, but players that haven't played in the Majors by the end of the year aren't eligible to be kept and become available again for the Minor League draft the next year.

I like this approach because you don't have to police transactions during the year and you don't end up with owners needing to check both the Minor and Major League rosters to tell if a guy is available or not.

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